Welcome to PatsFans.com

Rent a Defensive Back???

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mgteich, Aug 3, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,975
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +28 / 1 / -0

    We seem to have accepted extreme instability in the defensive backfield. If two of Wheatley, Wilhite and Richardson look good and James Sanders is re-signed, we have a dine basis for the future, but those are pretty big if's.

    Samuel, Wilson and Gay are all gone from last year.

    SAFETY
    Sanders, Harrison, Williams and Ventrone are signed only through this season. Meriweather has a contract past this season.

    CORNER
    Hobbs, Wheatley, Wilhite and Richardson are signed past this season. The following are signed through this season only: Bryant, Webster, L. Sanders and Spann.


    A POSSIBLE FUTURE
    CORNER: Hobbs, Wheatley, Wilhite/Richardson
    SAFETY: Meriweather, James Sanders
  2. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    Messages:
    3,677
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    I hope that the Patriots make an attempt to re-sign Fernando

    Bryant and James Sanders before they reach free agency. Neither

    player should command an outrageous salary.
  3. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,338
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    why so worried? I imagine this upcoming draft they will address another piece of the defense whether lb or cb.

    they'll be fine.
  4. Patslifer

    Patslifer Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2008
    Messages:
    758
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    Because if there are injuries to the lb's, and we lost speed upfront, the secondary is going to be exposed badly.
  5. SammyBlueCat

    SammyBlueCat Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2005
    Messages:
    740
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    Every team has several "ifs" to consider every season.
  6. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,338
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    you think the secondary is that bad? if the lb'ers did get injured i'd expect the safeties to fall back more.
  7. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,975
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +28 / 1 / -0

    Yes, indeed! And great teams address this ifs as best they can before the season begins, sometimes two or three years before the season begins. The patriots have paid severely for risks they have knowlingly taken with regard to risks at depth at LB and RB. Were we unlucky?

    Stability requires planning. It is not good to replace half your unit each year, unless they were horrible.

    The defensive backfield with which we won the AFC last year may be all gone by the end of this year with the exception of Hobbs and Meriweather. And yes, I would feel differently if Bryant, Williams and Webster were signed to 2-year contracts and James Sanders was extended.


  8. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    8,329
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0

    The Pats "paid" by winning three superbowls. There are a lot of other teams who would have liked to have had the consequences the Pats have had due to their personnel decisions. Like 31 of them.
  9. Patslifer

    Patslifer Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2008
    Messages:
    758
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    No, I think they will be good. I just think the rooks are going to need time to develope, and might be exposed ( if the lb core is thinned out slightly).

    Nitpicking really.
  10. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,338
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    just worry about this year. they had plenty of bodies in the secondary. we'll see if any of them can play soon.
  11. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,338
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    how come you are quoting yourself?
  12. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,975
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +28 / 1 / -0

    The way not to get better is look at the successes of the past, rather than the challenges. In the past, BEFORE the season has started we have discussed the risks has taken with regard to LB and RB. I have almost always supported the team's personnel decisions.

    Hopefully, we have solved the problem at RB with a decision to keep five RB's so that we have a short yardage RB, and so that we don't need to depend on street RB's late in the season.

    I also think we have successfully addressed the LB problem by bringing in Thomas, Hobson, Mayo and Crable (and Seau last year).

    I understand that we probably did all we could at corner and safety, but the strategy of bring in several vets and hope that someone steps up won't necessarily work. I think the last time we tried this none of the three veteran corners even made the team.

  13. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,978
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 2 / -0

    I am likely in the minority but I see Sanders as a player who has gotten better every year and has become a steady young presence in the secondary. He is not Ed Reed but can play either Safety position and special teams. These are the kind of players you want on your roster, I hope the Patriots extend him.
  14. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,975
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +28 / 1 / -0

    I agree 100%. James Sanders has done all that has been asked of him, and more.

  15. jeffbiologist

    jeffbiologist Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    I think we have safety in numbers at the CB positions right now. Let them learn the system and guage competancy by who makes the team and how well they do in this system. I would not be surprised to see the top veteran CB extended before the end of the season.
    I also think the "rental" is Sanders. With Merriweather coming on, Harrison and now Williams there Sanders needs to be more of a playmaker to make it on the field. Safeties under BB either lay the lumber or play center field(making PICKS). As much as some guys like him here I have seen him miss more tackles than Rodney...and dont recall him running anyone down from behind.
  16. Patslifer

    Patslifer Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2008
    Messages:
    758
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    I made a mistake.
  17. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,338
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    which one of your personalities made the mistake?;)
  18. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    7,384
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ratings:
    +9 / 0 / -0

    Can we please stop pretending that Wilson and Gay are significant losses? Asante, I'll give you - he's an all-pro corner, a HUGE loss, IMO (though not insurmountable one, especially with this staff). I'll even say Gay is MAYBE a quasi-loss, but even that's a stretch. Geno Wilson hasn't been a significant contributor to this secondary in YEARS. He is NO loss.

    I'm not disagreeing with the overall premise here. We have a lot of young players in the secondary, and will be depending on some rookies for significant minutes. I'll put in my two cents that James Sanders is a good, solid serviceable safety, he's young and has improved every season. If the secondary DOES become a problem, I'm sure BB will notice it way before we do, and address it as best he can.

    If we were to rent a DB, I'd love to see them go after Ty Law, but I don't expect that to happen. He's looking for starter money, and will likely get it - just as soon as someone, hopefully not the Pats, loses a top corner to a knee injury.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2008
  19. Zeke_Mowatt

    Zeke_Mowatt Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Messages:
    834
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

    I heard Lito left Iggles practice today...not sure if either he or AS are serious, but it would be pretty sad if Philly had to go out and grab Law too.
  20. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,978
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 2 / -0

    No way any of this happens, why would they extend Byrant or Webster? These are basically scrap heap guys that can be replaced in 10 minutes next year. There is no such thing as safety by numbers if everyone is average.

    At Safety Harrison is near the end, he has 1-2 more good years left and is a free agent after this season. Williams has been cut by plenty of bad defenses, despite the hype he is clearly the 4th option at safety and maybe even behind Spann at this point. Signing Sanders provides a youthful base at Safety (Merriweather, Sanders), can the base be improved? Yes, of course but at least two players are in the mix. Right now Merriweather is the only Safety signed beyond this season.
  21. JSn

    JSn Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    7,449
    Likes Received:
    32
    Ratings:
    +32 / 0 / -0

    I think it's interesting to hear Bryant and Webster referred to as scrap. I understand they've been released by other teams, but given the fact that we have cap space why do you think we haven't gone for super-star corners?

    Could it be the same reason some folks think Samuel is going to look like a shadow of his Patriot self with the Eagles?

    I think BB and co. have insights into players, especially veterans who many have called washouts, and how they can show up in the right system.

    Food for thought, and some of the long-time fans can probably bolster this list:

    • Moss looked to be an iffy catch when the trade happened, between people claiming he would be ineffective and his attitude issues.
    • Brady was #199 overall.
    • Samuel was #120 overall.
    • Seau was dumped by the chargers after SIXTEEN years due to injury troubles, which hit him again his first year in NE. In 2007 he set several career highs.
    • Tedy Bruschi seemed to be finished football in 2005 after a stroke and the discovery of a hole in is heart. He was named comeback player of the year in 2005 and has been productive since.

    This team seems to routinely make playmakers out of the scrap heap or at least out of players with low expectations.

    I think anyone signed to a one year deal will likely stay there until the year plays out, but I wouldn't think of any of the veteran signees as simple camp fodder and I SURE wouldn't base what they can do here on what anyone besides them and BB have to say on the matter.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2008
  22. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    25,448
    Likes Received:
    69
    Ratings:
    +93 / 2 / -2

    #24 Jersey

    I'm still a little worried about our secondary. It seems to resemble to patchwork secondary of '05. Personally, I think the D will start to gel and the youth will rise up toward the end of the year. At the beginning of the year, though, we may be in for a few shoot-outs. The pressure our front seven gets on the quarterback will dictate the success of our rebuilt secondary.
  23. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    23,735
    Likes Received:
    47
    Ratings:
    +53 / 0 / -1

    #50 Jersey

    Bryant is a scrap heap guy? Why do you say that? Because he played on a garbage Lions defense that couldn't rush the passer if their life depended on it? Because he had no other help in the secondary? Do you know why the Lions cut Bryant? Salary cap. No other reason.

    Do you know what you are talking about? "Williams has been cut by plenty of bad defenses"? Please name ALL the bad defenses he's been on that he was "cut" from. He wasn't cut from Tennessee. He chose to leave. Or do you mean the Vikings where he missed an entire year due to a fractured knee-cap suffered in his first training camp with the Vikings?

    Williams is more than the "4th" option at safety. Or have you not been paying attention to camp where Williams has been lining up with the 2nd team LBers? That's called versatility.

    While Meriweather is the only safety signed beyond this season, there is probably a very good reason behind that. Its called the uncertainty with the new CBA. The Patriots were doing similar things during the previous negotiations. Some of that uncertainty has been laid to rest and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Patriots make an active effort to sign Sanders and Wilfork to extensions since they have quite a bit of salary cap space available.
  24. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    23,735
    Likes Received:
    47
    Ratings:
    +53 / 0 / -1

    #50 Jersey

    Patchwork secondary of 2005? You mean when the team had 7 DBs on the IR by week 6? Hardly a fair comparison.

    Its going to be interesting to see who makes the team, granted. But I think that people here really don't know enough about guys like Bryant and Lewis Sanders to be making some of the assinine comments that have been coming out.

    Do any of you REALLY think that Belichick would have signed these guys if he felt they couldn't help the team?

    And please don't mention Victor Green or Duane Starks because there have been plenty of others where BB and Pioli have gotten production that has helped this team.
  25. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,975
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +28 / 1 / -0

    Perhaps Bryant and company (Lewis Sanders, and Webster) are the second coming of Warfield and company. Perhaps Bryant is the second coming of O-T-I-S. Time will tell. HOWEVER, Bryant should be a quality STARTER for Belichick. Wheatley should be fighting with the other for reps at nickel (and also with Richardson).


  26. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,975
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +28 / 1 / -0

    You mention that Meriweather is the only safety signed past 2008. Why do you think Williams, Bryant, Webster, Spann and Lewis have all been signed to one-year contracts instead of TWO year contracts. Doesn't the cap effect of the CBA renegotiation have effects starting in 2010?


  27. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    25,448
    Likes Received:
    69
    Ratings:
    +93 / 2 / -2

    #24 Jersey

    The 2005 secondary was ravaged with injuries. Thus, it was a patchwork secondary. This secondary is new and inexperienced in the system. They're coming in to replace the old guard that departed for bigger contracts. This is the definition of a patchwork secondary. They may not be under the same circumstances, but they can still be lumped in to the same crowd.

    Bryant was actually the more solid pick-up by us in the offseason. The rest are iffy. Oh, and I've seen enough of Bryant and James Sanders to form an opinion about both of them.

    The pure notion that BB and Pioli can't do anything wrong in player evaluation is the assanine statement here. Sure, they have had a lot of success. More success than any in the business. Enough to make me trust them. But they have still had some pretty big duds. Two of them you mentioned yourself.

    Face it, this is a brand new secondary. It takes a few games to get accustomed to the Pats' defensive scheme. It's patchwork. But patchwork can pay off... we've seen that in the past. For the record, I have faith that this secondary can work. I just don't have too much faith in them early in the season. I think we're in for some shoot-outs. As the season goes on, though, I think they will gel.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2008
  28. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,978
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 2 / -0

    I agree with the last part of the post, signing Sanders and Wilfork is a good idea. The rest of the post seems like "these are good players because the wear a Patriots uniform".
  29. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    25,448
    Likes Received:
    69
    Ratings:
    +93 / 2 / -2

    #24 Jersey

    Yep, that's about right. But then again, neither of us is really able to say that much. It's all speculation at this point. To be honest, I hope DaBruinz is right and they all pan out on the field. That would be great for the team. But I just don't think it's going to happen immediately.
  30. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,978
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 2 / -0

    I will be happy if one of the three (Webster, Lewis or Bryant) makes an impact this year. Hopefully it is Bryant because the depth at Safety is better. By the sounds of it Wheatley and Wilhite bring as much to the table as L. Sanders and Webster. If it is tie I would go with youth.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page