Reiss: Patriots most shotgun-heavy team in league

[ausbacker]

Dude.... he is one of the best when he is mobile and truckin w/ that ball....... he throws lasers on the run.


A laser is a straight beam of light btw....... (he is accurate) on the move

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you're trying to achieve by saying he throws well on the run?

 

[Rob0729]

Our RED ZONE Offense sucks....... that is no secret.


We have been running the ball more frequently.... just not changing schemes in which we should some timess.


A shotgun run leaves possibilities open. PPL will be guessing.... and if they Guess wrong we capitalize with a complete pass or a beneficial run.



I could go on forever...... but If we plan on Running the ball on a consistent basis.... we should at least choose the appropriate formation for it. It will give a different look...... and hey why not even block for Phony Maroney if we plan on running the football?


I am all for a "MIX UP"...... but still love the Shotty formation and its benefits.

Shotty should not happen 65-80% of the time like we consistently do it. It is time for change and a new dimension.

You talking about Marty Ball. Marty Ball seems to be becoming a dinosaur system that isn't working in the modern NFL. The Chargers have moved away from it. The Jets can't score with it.

I think O'Brien needs to mix it up at times. He isn't as adept as McDaniels or Weis in calling plays. I have some problems with his decisions in situations, but it goes far, far beyond the shotgun. That is far too simplistic. If the Pats stopped using the shotgun all together, I don't see O'Brien's situational football being any better. He needs experience to learn what to do in certain situations.

 

[maverick4]

We are PATRIOTS gentleman....... not enemies.

A bunch of excuse makers, obsessed with passing yardage, used to be what we made fun of about 04 Colts fans or 01 Rams fans. What happened.

 

[mayoclinic]

There's a degree of truth to this mayo. For the past 3 seasons, about an 8% increase per year in teams passing from the shotgun has been observed. I think it's sitting at 54 or 56%. Since the Pats went ballistic with the spread offense adapted from Urban Meyer in 2007, how many offenses have tried to emulate that? Even Pittsburgh, who have been a historically run first term now has a competent QB who is throwing for massive yards now.

At the end of the day, I have zero problems with the shotgun and as Rob has rightfully pointed out, the issue lies at the heart of O'Brien learning on the job in play-calling. It leaves most of us scratching our heads, but if you had Brady as your quarterback, I'd hazard a thought it would be difficult not to continually fall back on him in your rookie offensive coordinator season.

That sounds like a reasonable analysis. Thanks for the clarification. Though I'm not sure I would trumpet us as being "ahead of the curve".

I'm not against the shotgun per se, but I think it's become overused, certainly by us, and that we've become more predictable and one-dimensional on offense. We point to Indy as a one-dimensional team, but we haven't done much to differentiate ourselves in that regard. There are obviously advantages to allowing a QB like Brady or Manning to scan the field, see the pass rush, make a read and find the open guy. Though we seem to be more and more locked in on Welker and Moss, regardless of who is open. And our OL doesn't always seem to be able to hold up against the opposing pass rush long enough to make it effective, based on the 2008 SB and recent games. "Shotgun on the run" doesn't work terribly well.

The bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that our offense has not been terribly effective this year. We've had red zone problems all year, and in 3 of our 4 losses we've been held to 17 points or less, while averaging 33 PPG in our other 8 games. Too predictable means too susceptible to pressure. And it's been too ineffective too often.

I'm not suggesting we jettison the shotgun. But we seem to have a tendency to go more and more exclusively to it over the course of a game, and our offense seems to break down whenever this happens. If O'Brien can't get the handle of play calling fast enough to be effective, then perhaps someone else should be calling the plays.

 

[ausbacker]

These guys are 01 Rams or 04 Colts fans in Patriots clothing. They have zero clue why the dynasty was successful. A bunch of excuse makers, obsessed with passing yardage.

Wow. People who don't agree with your point of view aren't Patriots fans hey. That's the most despicable thing I've ever read on a forum.

 

[Rob0729]

You're not exaggerating at all. You keep backtracking but every time you explain yourself you confirm that you are absolutely in love with the shotgun, wish we used it even more, and think we are leading some sort of cutting edge evolution of the game.

It's just the opposite. It's a fad, like Houston Oilers run-n-shoot, or Bills no-huddle, which just like the Pats offense now can be stopped by any decent D-coordinator. Stop Welker and this team cannot manufacture a win. In the dynasty days we had league-leading-injury-numbers and still kept rolling no matter who was playing and who we played.

LOL! It's a fad that the Pats have been successfully running for years. That the Colts have adopted this year and been running very successfully. You can't be joking.

I wasn't exaggerating that the league is moving towards the shotgun and that the Pats were the first to really adopt it, but the tone was exaggerated because I knew it would peiss you off. The fact of the matter the rules and the dominant defensive trends right now make it an advantageous formation to run.

 

[ausbacker]

The bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that our offense has not been terribly effective this year. We've had red zone problems all year, and in 3 of our 4 losses we've been held to 17 points or less, while averaging 33 PPG in our other 8 games. Too predictable means too susceptible to pressure. And it's been too ineffective too often.

I'm not suggesting we jettison the shotgun. But we seem to have a tendency to go more and more exclusively to it over the course of a game, and our offense seems to break down whenever this happens. If O'Brien can't get the handle of play calling fast enough to be effective, then perhaps someone else should be calling the plays.

If memory serves correct, we had red zone problems in 2008 too. Different quarterback, different offensive coordinator, same system.

 

[HarkDawg]

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you're trying to achieve by saying he throws well on the run?

Go BACK and look at the argument between SHOTTY and other formations..... You and MAV were fighting....... I put forth a stance of Pro-Shotty...... but with a mix up and change.


I get into great detail^^^ w/ that and I got no love or responses.

---------------------------------------------------------------------


2..... This pertains to this last quote of yours about me...... THROWING on the RUN is so much different than throwing stationary in the pocket.......


I am just saying... (Big Ben) is a great QB when he is running w/ the ball and plans on throwing it. A lot of times Ben will just scramble for 6 plus yards as he runs away from pressure...... BEN on the RUN is UNPREDICTABLE.... but when he throws the ball on the RUN.....

-(He is the best at it and very accurate)^

 

[maverick4]

If memory serves correct, we had red zone problems in 2008 too. Different quarterback, different offensive coordinator, same system.

If by system you mean over-reliant, over-used, predictable shotgun formation, I agree.

The common denominator is this fad offensive system.

 

[maverick4]

LOL! It's a fad that the Pats have been successfully running for years. That the Colts have adopted this year and been running very successfully.

Same thing happened with other fads in this league, they lasted a few years.

This isn't some long-lasting evolution of the game, sorry to break it to you.

The dynastic-level champions will always be the ones flexible enough to win a game multiple different ways, not the ones insisting on over-reliant predictable offensive schemes.

 

[Rob0729]

These guys are 01 Rams or 04 Colts fans in Patriots clothing. They have zero clue why the dynasty was successful. A bunch of excuse makers, obsessed with passing yardage.

LOL! Still using that one. I'm sorry I am love with useless offensive stats like points scored. Who cares about points. I would rather be an ignorant, Patriots fan and have a more balanced offense and let this team lose more games to put the game in the hands of a defense that isn't ready to control the game. Apparently the Patriot way now is rooting for losing seasons as long as the Pats move away from the shotgun and be more balanced.

Again, if the Pats had a defense that could shut down opponsing teams on a regular basis, I would be all for going back to ball contol offense. We just don't have the defense to do that. This offense needs to score in a lot of games or we are going to lose. There are other games where the defense needs to step up and make up for the offense or the team will lose.

 

[HarkDawg]

Our RED ZONE Offense sucks....... that is no secret.


We have been running the ball more frequently.... just not changing schemes in which we should some timess.


A shotgun run leaves possibilities open. PPL will be guessing.... and if they Guess wrong we capitalize with a complete pass or a beneficial run.



I could go on forever...... but If we plan on Running the ball on a consistent basis.... we should at least choose the appropriate formation for it. It will give a different look...... and hey why not even block for Phony Maroney if we plan on running the football?


I am all for a "MIX UP"...... but still love the Shotty formation and its benefits.

Shotty should not happen 65-80% of the time like we consistently do it. It is time for change and a new dimension.

This is from page 3 i believe.... I made multiple useful comments like this.

Take a LOOKSY

 

[maverick4]

Again, if the Pats had a defense that could shut down opponsing teams on a regular basis, I would be all for going back to ball contol offense. We just don't have the defense to do that. This offense needs to score in a lot of games or we are going to lose.

Why do you keep clinging to this BS story.
The 2006-2009 defenses have always been in the top 8 yet this offensive shotgun fad has always been here during that time.

Even when we lead, we still go shotgun. When the opponent has scored few points, we still go shotgun. When we trail we go shotgun. This team uses shotgun no matter what.

The 'throwing the D under the bus' excuse won't work for the Patriots. Manning had a legitimately below avg D during that time. The Pats, not so much.

 

[ausbacker]

Go BACK and look at the argument between SHOTTY and other formations..... You and MAV were fighting....... I put forth a stance of Pro-Shotty...... but with a mix up and change.


I get into great detail^^^ w/ that and I got no love or responses.

---------------------------------------------------------------------


2..... This pertains to this last quote of yours about me...... THROWING on the RUN is so much different than throwing stationary in the pocket.......


I am just saying... (Big Ben) is a great QB when he is running w/ the ball and plans on throwing it. A lot of times Ben will just scramble for 6 plus yards as he runs away from pressure...... BEN on the RUN is UNPREDICTABLE.... but when he throws the ball on the RUN.....

-(He is the best at it and very accurate)^

Sorry mate, I've found it really difficult to follow your posts. Roethlisberger is considerably more mobile than Brady, so throwing on the run would be a great strength of his. I'm not sure how well Brady stacks up in this category, but I wouldn't think it would be fantastic.

 

[Rob0729]

Same thing happened with other fads in this league, they lasted a few years.

This isn't some long-lasting evolution of the game, sorry to break it to you.

The dynastic-level champions will always be the ones flexible enough to win a game multiple different ways, not the ones insisting on over-reliant predictable schemes.

Yes, because you know more than Belichick and all the other coaches who are moving towards the shotgun. Why Belichick hasn't hired you as the Pats' offensive coordinator is beyond me.

Funny, name the last championship team that had a dynamic offense that is flexible enough to change their schemes. The Steelers? Nope. Colts? No. Giants? No. The Pats? Yes. The Bucs? No. The Ravens? Definitely not. The Broncos? No. The Packers? No. The Rams? No. So over the last 15 years or so, you had one team who played like you described. The Pats played that way in 2007 when they had to (see the playoff games vs. the Jags and Chargers for proof) and they didn't win.

You really don't know what you are talking about. You likeed the Weis offense and feel that is the only way to do it. And we don't even know with all the changes to the rules and the defenses that it would work as well today.

 

[MassPats38]

I am still unclear why the use of the shotgun formation is a bad thing. Maybe you can dismiss the opinion of Brian Billick, the offensive coordinator for the Vikings when it broke all offensive records, or of other teams showing success running the shotgun and I-formations, but dismissing the formation out of hand does not support your theory.

The problem is your argument needs to start with some basis in fact, specifically hard data that some other formation would make the team less predictable and therefore more successful in the red zone or outside the red zone as in your other thread where you also raise the shotgun formation as an issue in the OP. That data would have to account for the Patriots' specific personnel groupings and skill set. Do not offer something like the fact that the red zone offense is lacking as it no more supports that theory than would a lack of execution by the players out of the formation or any formation for that matter. Eliminate drops, missed blocks, bad routes and bad throws as an explanation and your argument might have some force. Otherwise, you sound like a fan who perceives a football IQ of such magnitude that he sees what the entire Patriots staff is missing after days and weeks of film review.

An additional question might be if lining up under center is such a great solution, what happens when Brady doesn't have the extra second to address any blocking deficiencies? The offensive line is not lights out, and oftentimes the reduced sack count is attributable to Brady's ability to sense pressure and unload. Take a second off his response time, as you must lining up under center, and that problem becomes major. The hope then may well be that Hoyer is more durable against bigger hits while back-pedalling.

 

[ausbacker]

maverick can you quit with the Patriots fans/other teams fans comment. We're all Patriots fans and for you to accuse others of not being because we don't agree with all your points is absolutely disgraceful.

 

[Rob0729]

Why do you keep clinging to this bullsh*t story.
The 2006-2009 defenses have always been in the top 8 yet this offensive shotgun fad has always been here during that time.

Even when we lead, we still go shotgun. When the opponent has scored few points, we still go shotgun. When we trail we go shotgun. This team uses shotgun no matter what.

You are a Colts04 fan in Patriots clothing, but the 'throwing the D under the bus' excuse won't work for the Patriots. Manning had a legitimately below avg D during that time. The Pats, not so much.

LOL! Do you even read your posts? You called the Pats being 4th in PPGs a useless stat and then trout out the defensive equivalent to prove your point. You are one weird dud. Friggin entertaining because you are so out there in NEM stratosphere, but it is fun toying with you.

 

[HarkDawg]

Sorry mate, I've found it really difficult to follow your posts. Roethlisberger is considerably more mobile than Brady, so throwing on the run would be a great strength of his. I'm not sure how well Brady stacks up in this category, but I wouldn't think it would be fantastic.

But he is not FANTASTIC at it...... it was one of his weakest elements as a QB.... Granted he is Improving at it...... he is surely no Big Ben on the run and throwing the ball as he is running.

 

[Rob0729]

I am still unclear why the use of the shotgun formation is a bad thing. Maybe you can dismiss the opinion of Brian Billick, the offensive coordinator for the Vikings when it broke all offensive records, or of other teams showing success running the shotgun and I-formations, but dismissing the formation out of hand does not support your theory.

The problem is, your argument needs to start with some basis in fact, specifically hard data that some other formation would make the team less predictable and therefore more successful in the red zone or outside the red zone as in your other thread where you also raise the shotgun formation as an issue in the OP. That data would have to account for the Patriots' specific personnel groupings and skill set. Do not offer something like the fact that the red zone offense is lacking as it no more supports that theory than would a lack of execution by the players out of the formation or any formation for that matter. Eliminate drops, missed blocks, bad routes and bad throws as an explanation and your argument might have some force. Otherwise, you sound like a fan who perceives a football IQ of such magnitude that he sees what the entire Patriots staff is missing after days and weeks of film review.

An additional question might be if lining up under center is such a great solution, what happens when Brady doesn't have the extra second to address any blocking deficiencies? The offensive line is not lights out, and oftentimes the reduced sack count is attributable to Brady's ability to sense pressure and unload. Take a second off his response time, as you must lining up under center, and that problem becomes major. The hope then may well be that Hoyer is more durable against bigger hits while back-pedalling.

I wish to co-sign this post. You have said it more eloquently than I have.