Reiss on the McCourty personal foul

[AtivanPatsFan]

A few comments:

1) Unfortunately, officials are required (I'm pretty sure) to throw a flag if there is any helmet-to-helmet contact with a receiver. This a problem in itself because it fails to account for situations where the contact was inadvertent, the receiver initiated contact, etc.

2) When I was watching the replays from the broadcast, one particular replay appeared to show that there was clearly a helmet to helmet hit. I made a remark to my friend who missed the replay that it "clearly" looked helmet-to-helmet. The very next replay showed, in my opinion, that the shoulder made contact first, thus avoiding the rule.


Situations like this are not going to go over well with any team come playoff time. Regardless of the result yesterday, a 15-yard penalty on a miscall has the potential to be game changing.

I believe the best result for both player safety and the integrity of the game would be to have an NFL official who would automatically review any helmet to helmet contact after each play, or after any play which a helmet to helmet hit has been flagged. The official's purpose would be to determine whether the hit was legal or illegal, and have the correct call applied on the field 100% of the time.

I don't know about you guys, but I think that with such a controversial new rule, some protection must be implemented.

 

[groganbootleg]

A few comments:

1) Unfortunately, officials are required (I'm pretty sure) to throw a flag if there is any helmet-to-helmet contact with a receiver. This a problem in itself because it fails to account for situations where the contact was inadvertent, the receiver initiated contact, etc.

BUT they didn't throw a flag. There was no flag on the play itself. The flag came out AFTER the referees conferred with each other after seeing the replay. Its almost as if one of them had an earpiece telling them that they might want to think about that last play.

Again, no flag on the play itself...... flag after referee's conference.

 

[SpiderFox53]

He didn't call the penalty for helmet to helmet. He called it for a forearm/upper arm to the neck. This clearly did not actually happen. McCourty clearly hit shoulder and arm directly into the receiver's chest.

 

[BradyManny]

The rules don't say anything about it, so I don't see a problem with them doing it.


What I don't like is them holding up play waiting for something to be shown, and the home team actually showing it.

Are you sure there is no rule? I felt like there is.

If there's not, there should be - the instant replay system is the way it is for a reason. You can't have refs using the jumbotron to make calls, that is a nightmare for so many reasons.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Dale Arnold was just making the same observation in his WEEI open. He said BB was also steamed that we were showing that replay at that time. Hoculi had already signaled incomplete which was apparently what they were initially huddling over. Late flags altogether are a joke and often the product of lobbying or pressure. Last night someone looking at a replay on the jumbotron (Dale thinks it was the side judge) knowing the commissioner was in the building apparently decided he missed a call and needed to rectify that. Only problem is they are not allowed to do that based on replay unless it's the ref and he's under the hood and even then he can't call a penalty based on what he sees...

If replay were allowed to be viewed in penalty situations we would have come out ahead of the curve last night since they called at lot of BS penalties on Patriot players who were actually being held or having hands to their face or being interferred with in the process of committing the called penalty or having a pass called incomplete.

This!!!!!!

Pats org needs to stop sucking up to Goodell in a counterproductive and failed attempt at appeasement. He's a Jets fan.

 

[AtivanPatsFan]

BUT they didn't throw a flag. There was no flag on the play itself. The flag came out AFTER the referees conferred with each other after seeing the replay. Its almost as if one of them had an earpiece telling them that they might want to think about that last play.

Again, no flag on the play itself...... flag after referee's conference.

Interesting point. Then the proper question would be whether officials have the capability within the NFL rules to confer before throwing a flag.

NFL Digest of Rules

I didn't find anything after doing a quick search.

 

[Yehoodi]

No, it absolutely is not. The jumbotron is not referenced anywhere in the rules.

what IS IN THE RULES is that a helmet to helmet contact is NOT a REVIEWABLE play, AS SUCH, the refs had NO BUSINESS watching ANY video review of the play is it is NOT REVIEWABLE plan and simple . . .

the fact that they did not go under the hood is irrelevenat, the refs reviewed a play on video to "get the call right" but you can not review a play that is by rule not reviewable . . . as it was not one of the selected type of reviewable plays the play on the field stays as called or as they saught it . . .

 

[DaBruinz]

The rules don't say anything about it, so I don't see a problem with them doing it.


What I don't like is them holding up play waiting for something to be shown, and the home team actually showing it.

Sorry, Synovia, the rules on replays are very specific and it does say that they cannot use them to CALL a penalty. And that is essentially what the refs were doing. Using the REPLAY to determine a penalty.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

BUT they didn't throw a flag. There was no flag on the play itself. The flag came out AFTER the referees conferred with each other after seeing the replay. Its almost as if one of them had an earpiece telling them that they might want to think about that last play.

Again, no flag on the play itself...... flag after referee's conference.

No, it was actually worse than that. They were conferencing over whether the pass was incomplete. And I believe if it hadn't been it would have been a turnover had the whistle blown because that ball came out before the player was down and a Patriot player had recovered it. Hochuli came out of the conference signaling INC. Before he did that the side judge backed out of the conference and was clearly viewing the replay on the jumbotron and HE didn't throw his flag until after he watched it. If he thought it was a penalty he is perfectly within his rights to throw his flag after the play and they could have discussed that as well (whether to pick up the flag or not) in the conference. That's just not the way this call unfolded.... If the penalty was the result of the conference independent of a crew member watching that replay, then Hochuli would have been the one to throw the flag as he was the one to call the play an INC. The ref is the one charged with making or clarifying calls that are the result of a conference.

 

[Synovia]

Are you sure there is no rule? I felt like there is.

If there's not, there should be - the instant replay system is the way it is for a reason. You can't have refs using the jumbotron to make calls, that is a nightmare for so many reasons.

Please, list some reasons?


I'd rather have the refs using every resource available to them. The instant replay system is only available when coaches ask for it. This has nothing to do with instant replay.

 

[jbb9s]

Sound about right. Collinsworth was saying he didn't see it until they played it on slow motion, guess the refs didn't either.

I didn't see it at first but I heard it. Anyone that has the game on DVR go back and watch it. And listen.

That being said, lets not forget, there is definitely a difference between just the penalty in game and getting an actual fine on Tuesday. I don't know how the league differentiates, but apparently they are doing so this year.

Interesting point. Then the proper question would be whether officials have the capability within the NFL rules to confer before throwing a flag.

NFL Digest of Rules

I didn't find anything after doing a quick search.

I just think that if refs can confer to discuss an incorrect flag (like during PI to talk about if the pass was deflected is the most common I can think of) then they might as well confer to discuss if the absence of a flag.

Overall, it was a questionable call but not egregious.

 

[Synovia]

what IS IN THE RULES is that a helmet to helmet contact is NOT a REVIEWABLE play, AS SUCH, the refs had NO BUSINESS watching ANY video review of the play is it is NOT REVIEWABLE plan and simple . . .

the fact that they did not go under the hood is irrelevenat, the refs reviewed a play on video to "get the call right" but you can not review a play that is by rule not reviewable . . . as it was not one of the selected type of reviewable plays the play on the field stays as called or as they saught it . . .

No, they did not. A review is a very specific thing. They didn't do a review.

 

[Nikolai]

Proper procedure in Foxboro should be NOT TO SHOW STUFF LIKE THAT ON THE DAMNED JUMBOTRON!

Which is ironic, because half the time, they don't show a damn thing on the jumbotron, especially not replays.

Someone f'ed this one up.

 

[Synovia]

Which is ironic, because half the time, they don't show a damn thing on the jumbotron, especially not replays.

Someone f'ed this one up.

Right, this is the big issue here. The scoreboard operator did something dumb (although he probably didn't see the helmet-to-helmet, and was just replaying a big play).

 

[Jared]

Please, list some reasons?


I'd rather have the refs using every resource available to them. The instant replay system is only available when coaches ask for it. This has nothing to do with instant replay.

One simple reason: Who runs the jumbotron? Once this policy became standard operating procedure, it massively benefits the home team, as the screen operators would only show things that were otherwise uncalled against the visitors.

 

[BradyManny]

Please, list some reasons?


I'd rather have the refs using every resource available to them. The instant replay system is only available when coaches ask for it. This has nothing to do with instant replay.

1) It immediately gives the home team an unfair advantage as its their stadium, and they can control the replays
2) There are certain calls which - by the rule book - are not reviewable. This rule would be broken - as it was last nite.
3) It slows down the game, and changes the tempo of the game for the players.
4) The refs aren't in control of what they see on the jumbotron, ie, which angles are shown in review on the jumbotron, which can lead to a bad call.
5) The game should not be ref'd in slow motion.
6) Watching a replay with the crowd reacting inherently leads to a bias. Again, for the home team.

Exactly what advantages are there? It would be an absolutely nightmare if this became common practice.

 

[reflexblue]

Right, this is the big issue here. The scoreboard operator did something dumb (although he probably didn't see the helmet-to-helmet, and was just replaying a big play).

I'm Sure there was a little conference this morning with the people that run the scoreboard and the operators about NOT Ever putting something like that on the board again.

 

[upstater1]

No, they did not. A review is a very specific thing. They didn't do a review.

You're parsing the rules in a way that Gooddell hates. He talks about the spirit of the rule. If the refs are going to review non-reviewable calls by avoiding the review system and just looking at the Jumbotron, then they are violating the spirit of the rule.

Let's just parse every single damn rule in the rulebook so that we can exploit its syntactical flaws. Oh wait, Belichick did that already. The Patriots lost a 1st round draft pick because Lord Gooddell decreed that you shouldn't do that.

 

[patsox23]

Please, list some reasons?


I'd rather have the refs using every resource available to them. The instant replay system is only available when coaches ask for it. This has nothing to do with instant replay.

I'm sorry, this just isn't correct. They cannot use information gleaned from looking at the Jumbotron or any other replay device unless someone throws a red flag or its inside of two minutes. This isn't in any way controversial. It goes without saying.

 

[Synovia]

1) It immediately gives the home team an unfair advantage as its their stadium, and they can control the replays
2) There are certain calls which - by the rule book - are not reviewable. This rule would be broken - as it was last nite.
3) It slows down the game, and changes the tempo of the game for the players.
4) The refs aren't in control of what they see on the jumbotron, ie, which angles are shown in review on the jumbotron, which can lead to a bad call.
5) The game should not be ref'd in slow motion.
6) Watching a replay with the crowd reacting inherently leads to a bias. Again, for the home team.

Exactly what advantages are there?

Again, a REVIEW is a VERY SPECIFIC THING IN THE RULE BOOK. A Review did not happen on that play. A referees conference did.

AGAIN, THIS WAS NOT A REVIEW.