Reiss concerned about Cunningham

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Two words

Bam Childress

....in reverse

The WR for consecutive years that looked to some of us like the second coming of Jerry Rice in TC but was not good enough when REAL action came about.

The opposite happens just as often

 

[patfanken]

Some comments on the thread.

1. The rapid signings of Anderson, Ellis, and Carter are all very understandable if you take them individually. However taking them all together, there are a myriad of possible interpretations that could be made. Everything from Reiss is right about Cunningham, to the Haynesworth experiment has already run its course.....and everything in between. I know BB fully understands the strategy behind all the moves....and as we know he ain't talking.

BOTTOM LINE: As fans we certainly won't lack for conversation possibilities for the next 3 weeks.

2. There are 3 scenarios that I think are most probably. All could be nothing but figments of my imagination.
a. BB is now convinced that Haynesworth is NOT going to work out. That's a guy feeling and the first thing to come to mind when I heard about the Ellis signing.
b. Because of the evolution of the passing game, BB is going from a 2 gap philosophy to to a one gap philosophy, So he brought in 4 guys who have had extensive one gap experience, and will fill in the other DL positions with guys like Vince Moore and Wright who have one gap skills
c. BB loves competition. He has 4 young DLmen who can't seem to get on the field (Pryor, Deadrick. Brace, and Love) plus guys like Moore and Cunningham who can also play the 4-3 DL Now he has 13 guys fighting for about 8 positions. Let the Darwinism begin.

3. I don't doubt Reiss' observation, but it IS the first week, and they haven't had any other organized work this off season. Its not like running a pass route or throwing the ball. You can't work on your pass rush moves without doing it against live competition.

IMHO Given that he miss nearly all of TC, and NEVER played a lick of 3-4 OLB before coming to the Pats, I thought Cunningham had a remarkable rookie season. To write him off because of one person's observation under this season's trying conditions, is the height of fan over reacting stupidiy

4. Though I don't disagree with the premiss that a team that is near the top of the league in sacks is likely to go far in the playoffs. I don't think having an individual "elite" pass RUSHER is necessary to get to that top 10 level. In those years when the Pats WERE in at the top of the league in sacks (03,O4,O6,07) The Pats had a double digit sacker ONCE (Vrabel in O7)

I really think that putting CONSISTENT "pressure" on the QB is what is REALLY important. Now here's the rub. What is the definition of "pressure". That's hard to define. On the surface, the combination of Sacks, QB hits, penalties caused, and "pressures" seem like best method. However while the first 3 are quantifiable, the last is very subjective

The BOTTOM LINE, is that its pretty clear that BB feels that pressure derived a TEAM approach is preferable to having the elite rusher. BB has proven time and time again that the Pats can scheme to neutralize the great pass rushers. Brady has has some of the best games of his career vs the Colts, Pittsburgh, etc who constantly lead the league in sacks The object is to have a lot of sacks NOT to have a single individual with a lot of sack

5, Welcome to the board Stevie - you'll find that this is one of my shorter posts

 

[Ring 6]

Some comments on the thread.

1. The rapid signings of Anderson, Ellis, and Carter are all very understandable if you take them individually. However taking them all together, there are a myriad of possible interpretations that could be made. Everything from Reiss is right about Cunningham, to the Haynesworth experiment has already run its course.....and everything in between. I know BB fully understands the strategy behind all the moves....and as we know he ain't talking.

BOTTOM LINE: As fans we certainly won't lack for conversation possibilities for the next 3 weeks.

2. There are 3 scenarios that I think are most probably. All could be nothing but figments of my imagination.
a. BB is now convinced that Haynesworth is NOT going to work out. That's a guy feeling and the first thing to come to mind when I heard about the Ellis signing.
b. Because of the evolution of the passing game, BB is going from a 2 gap philosophy to to a one gap philosophy, So he brought in 4 guys who have had extensive one gap experience, and will fill in the other DL positions with guys like Vince Moore and Wright who have one gap skills
c. BB loves competition. He has 4 young DLmen who can't seem to get on the field (Pryor, Deadrick. Brace, and Love) plus guys like Moore and Cunningham who can also play the 4-3 DL Now he has 13 guys fighting for about 8 positions. Let the Darwinism begin.

3. I don't doubt Reiss' observation, but it IS the first week, and they haven't had any other organized work this off season. Its not like running a pass route or throwing the ball. You can't work on your pass rush moves without doing it against live competition.

IMHO Given that he miss nearly all of TC, and NEVER played a lick of 3-4 OLB before coming to the Pats, I thought Cunningham had a remarkable rookie season. To write him off because of one person's observation under this season's trying conditions, is the height of fan over reacting stupidiy

4. Though I don't disagree with the premiss that a team that is near the top of the league in sacks is likely to go far in the playoffs. I don't think having an individual "elite" pass RUSHER is necessary to get to that top 10 level. In those years when the Pats WERE in at the top of the league in sacks (03,O4,O6,07) The Pats had a double digit sacker ONCE (Vrabel in O7)

I really think that putting CONSISTENT "pressure" on the QB is what is REALLY important. Now here's the rub. What is the definition of "pressure". That's hard to define. On the surface, the combination of Sacks, QB hits, penalties caused, and "pressures" seem like best method. However while the first 3 are quantifiable, the last is very subjective

The BOTTOM LINE, is that its pretty clear that BB feels that pressure derived a TEAM approach is preferable to having the elite rusher. BB has proven time and time again that the Pats can scheme to neutralize the great pass rushers. Brady has has some of the best games of his career vs the Colts, Pittsburgh, etc who constantly lead the league in sacks The object is to have a lot of sacks NOT to have a single individual with a lot of sack

5, Welcome to the board Stevie - you'll find that this is one of my shorter posts

I think the reason is very simple, and its the same reason for all of the veteran camp acquisitions BB has made over the years.
He feels they are good football players and can help the team.
I don't know why everyone has to think that every move is calculated adjustment to playing time that must say something about other players.
Ellis is a quality DL who can play 34 or 43 DE, sub package DT, is good against the run and the pass and is a reliable professional football player.
Mark Anderson is a guy who seems to have a decent chance of competing for some reps as a sub package DE. Thats what he is doing now, practicing and competing for a job, whether that is the top sub package rusher, part of the mix, or the 53rd guy who is inactive.
Andre Carter, is similar to Anderson, but although older, has been a better football player in the NFL. He is also competing for those sub package reps, but also competing for being in the mix for reps as a 34 OLB or 43 DE in whichever base we end up using.
I think that having these players available, at what apparently was an inexpensive price, is just good smart personell management. Since regardless of who we had on the roster, these 3 guys would certainly be competitive to make the team and contribute something, I think we would have signed them regardless of who else is on the roster, therefore, it sends absolutely no message about what anyone has done or where they stand.
All 3 could be uneployed on Sept 4th. or whatever cut down day is.

 

[Ring 6]

How does one make comments when they know nothing?


Cunningham was a starter by the end of the year. Thats a lot more than is expected for a 2nd round pick.

He really was a 'starter' all season long. He got credited with 11 starts, but as we know, the 11 players on the field for the first snap are not always the first unit

 

[PushnPencils]

I think the reason is very simple, and its the same reason for all of the veteran camp acquisitions BB has made over the years.
He feels they are good football players and can help the team.
I don't know why everyone has to think that every move is calculated adjustment to playing time that must say something about other players.
Ellis is a quality DL who can play 34 or 43 DE, sub package DT, is good against the run and the pass and is a reliable professional football player.
Mark Anderson is a guy who seems to have a decent chance of competing for some reps as a sub package DE. Thats what he is doing now, practicing and competing for a job, whether that is the top sub package rusher, part of the mix, or the 53rd guy who is inactive.
Andre Carter, is similar to Anderson, but although older, has been a better football player in the NFL. He is also competing for those sub package reps, but also competing for being in the mix for reps as a 34 OLB or 43 DE in
whichever base we end up using.
I think that having these players available, at what apparently was an inexpensive price, is just good smart personell management. Since regardless of who we had on the roster, these 3 guys would certainly be competitive to make the team and contribute something, I think we would have signed them regardless of who else is on the roster, therefore, it sends absolutely no message about what anyone has done or where they stand.
All 3 could be uneployed on Sept 4th. or whatever cut down day is.

I would also add another scenario. If SMYs report regarding Roth were correct.....I would consider we didn't hear anything for a couple of days after his workout. I wonder if shortly after his workout they made and offer which they thought was a go. A couple of days later, getting put in limbo....Roth renegs on the deal.....

Now they are left scrambling a bit to try to remedy filling a hole they thought Roth had filled.

That being said....they might just need bodies out there to make it competitive with lots of guys on the shelf.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

I think the reason is very simple, and its the same reason for all of the veteran camp acquisitions BB has made over the years.
He feels they are good football players and can help the team.
I don't know why everyone has to think that every move is calculated adjustment to playing time that must say something about other players.
Ellis is a quality DL who can play 34 or 43 DE, sub package DT, is good against the run and the pass and is a reliable professional football player.
Mark Anderson is a guy who seems to have a decent chance of competing for some reps as a sub package DE. Thats what he is doing now, practicing and competing for a job, whether that is the top sub package rusher, part of the mix, or the 53rd guy who is inactive.
Andre Carter, is similar to Anderson, but although older, has been a better football player in the NFL. He is also competing for those sub package reps, but also competing for being in the mix for reps as a 34 OLB or 43 DE in whichever base we end up using.
I think that having these players available, at what apparently was an inexpensive price, is just good smart personell management. Since regardless of who we had on the roster, these 3 guys would certainly be competitive to make the team and contribute something, I think we would have signed them regardless of who else is on the roster, therefore, it sends absolutely no message about what anyone has done or where they stand.
All 3 could be uneployed on Sept 4th. or whatever cut down day is.

Exactly. In years past, we just signed these three players before March 15th. With the compressed time frame of this offseason, it would be impossible that every player that will make every team is already signed before practices start.

There is of course the possibilty that one or all of these moves were a reaction to what the coaching staff has seen so far. However, I think it's much more likely that we're simply bringing in talented players that have a chance of making the team, as AJ pointed out.

If the situation was reversed and we had signed Ellis 10 days ago and today made a trade with Washington for Haynesworth, would we all be concerned that Ellis must not be making the cut or did we simply add more talent to the team?

 

[Ring 6]

I would also add another scenario. If SMYs report regarding Roth were correct.....I would consider we didn't hear anything for a couple of days after his workout. I wonder if shortly after his workout they made and offer which they thought was a go. A couple of days later, getting put in limbo....Roth renegs on the deal.....

Now they are left scrambling a bit to try to remedy filling a hole they thought Roth had filled.

That being said....they might just need bodies out there to make it competitive with lots of guys on the shelf.

But thats the thinking I disagree with. Its not a matter of having a "hole to fill' or scrambling around to find the best guy of a bad group because you think you need one.
Its a matter of adding good football players. I am sure that BB expects there is a pretty good chance that he may end up cutting just about every player he acquires, esp the vet minumum guys. That doesn't 'leave a hole' it just means he uses his personell differently.
BB saw something in these guys he liked, and it wasn't that they play a certain position so he went down the list calling until he got one.

BB has shown he will take any good football player he can get and he will cut anyone that is no longer a good football player. "Scrambling because someone didnt sign" as never been BBs MO.

 

[Ring 6]

Exactly. In years past, we just signed these three players before March 15th. With the compressed time frame of this offseason, it would be impossible that every player that will make every team is already signed before practices start.

There is of course the possibilty that one or all of these moves were a reaction to what the coaching staff has seen so far. However, I think it's much more likely that we're simply bringing in talented players that have a chance of making the team, as AJ pointed out.

If the situation was reversed and we had signed Ellis 10 days ago and today made a trade with Washington for Haynesworth, would we all be concerned that Ellis must not be making the cut or did we simply add more talent to the team?

Agree.
There are 90 players in camp, and they have been practicing a week, some only a weekend.
To think conclusions about the roster, roles and personell groupings are even close to being made is silly.
I don't think we go out an sign old veterans to replace a starter if he has a so so week of practice.
DEPTH is what has separated BBs teams from most of the rest of the league. Moves like these are part of the arduous process of having the best depth in the NFL.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

Vince Wilfork had a second year slump too.

So does that make last year his rookie slump?

 

[D-Money]

Why am i not surprise?I dont know what BB saw in this guy.That other kid Dunlap had a higher ceiling then he did.

 

[Sciz]

Why am i not surprise?I dont know what BB saw in this guy.That other kid Dunlap had a higher ceiling then he did.

And if you only look at sacks, Dunlap was the better choice as of right now. What you also have to look at is the other pressures that they get, and Cunningham had more total pressures than Dunlap last season; they just weren't the ones that show up on the average stat sheet.

 

[condon84]

And if you only look at sacks, Dunlap was the better choice as of right now. What you also have to look at is the other pressures that they get, and Cunningham had more total pressures than Dunlap last season; they just weren't the ones that show up on the average stat sheet.

Is there a link to this stat? Or is this speculation?

 

[Sciz]

Is there a link to this stat? Or is this speculation?

Football Outsiders keeps track of hits and hurries. Cunningham had 1 sack, 4 hits, and 17 hurries for a total of 22 pressures. Dunlap had 9.5 sacks, 3 hits, and 4 hurries for a total of 16.5 pressures. Definitely some room for error (and they admit that), but at least they're more qualified than PFF.

 

[condon84]

Football Outsiders keeps track of hits and hurries. Cunningham had 1 sack, 4 hits, and 17 hurries for a total of 22 pressures. Dunlap had 9.5 sacks, 3 hits, and 4 hurries for a total of 16.5 pressures. Definitely some room for error (and they admit that), but at least they're more qualified than PFF.

So from that stat, it tells me that Dunlap finished the play more often than Cunningham. How many of those hurries that Cunningham had turn into completions? That would be a more telling stat. The effect of a "hurry" while great, is nonetheless inconsequential if the pass is completed. On the other hand, when you sack a QB, you make sure the pass isn't even attempted, plus they more than likely lose yardage.

How often has Brady, Manning, Rogers, hell, even Sanchez get hurried and still complete passes?

 

[folamzz]

Why do people think cunningham was good last year? Reading some of the post here, you would think he had more than one sack. He got significant playing time because his other competition was TBC and nincovich (Sp), not exactly top level competition. Yet both players had more sacks than him. He had the least production among our olbs. Even journey-man eric moore came in late in the season and had more sacks than cunningham. It's not like our olbs were the strenght of our defense last year, they were actually our weak link. Cunningham is the second coming of shawn crable. Some fans get excited for this guys when they are basically jags.
If we go to a 4-3 defense, andre carter is a starter; cunningham, eric moore and anderson compete for the other spot.

 

[Sciz]

Why do people think cunningham was good last year? Reading some of the post here, you would think he had more than one sack. He got significant playing time because his other competition was TBC and nincovich (Sp), not exactly top level competition. Yet both players had more sacks than him. He had the least production among our olbs. Even journey-man eric moore came in late in the season and had more sacks than cunningham. It's not like our olbs were the strenght of our defense last year, they were actually our weak link. Cunningham is the second coming of shawn crable. Some fans get excited for this guys when they are basically jags.
If we go to a 4-3 defense, andre carter is a starter; cunningham, eric moore and anderson compete for the other spot.

Because you have you be extremely shortsighted to think that the only relevant stat is sacks.

 

[Patriot Missile]

So from that stat, it tells me that Dunlap finished the play more often than Cunningham. How many of those hurries that Cunningham had turn into completions? That would be a more telling stat. The effect of a "hurry" while great, is nonetheless inconsequential if the pass is completed. On the other hand, when you sack a QB, you make sure the pass isn't even attempted, plus they more than likely lose yardage.

How often has Brady, Manning, Rogers, hell, even Sanchez get hurried and still complete passes?

To be fair this defense wasn't really an attacking get after the QB last season. More of a react and cover your territory type. We also led the league in takeaways and I can't justify if any of those pressures were directly related to which players or the scheme itself. However by some media accounts he hasn't looked all that good so far and I don't know how that relates to all these signings.

Give him the full 3 years and then I'll make a long term analysis of Cunningham. For the record I also wanted Dunlap in the 2nd.

 

[sbpatfan]

So from that stat, it tells me that Dunlap finished the play more often than Cunningham. How many of those hurries that Cunningham had turn into completions? That would be a more telling stat. The effect of a "hurry" while great, is nonetheless inconsequential if the pass is completed. On the other hand, when you sack a QB, you make sure the pass isn't even attempted, plus they more than likely lose yardage.

How often has Brady, Manning, Rogers, hell, even Sanchez get hurried and still complete passes?

That's a great point. I actually remember one situation where a Cunningham pressure resulted in a completion. It was a Peyton Manning pass right into James Sanders' hands.

 

[unoriginal]

So from that stat, it tells me that Dunlap finished the play more often than Cunningham. How many of those hurries that Cunningham had turn into completions? That would be a more telling stat. The effect of a "hurry" while great, is nonetheless inconsequential if the pass is completed. On the other hand, when you sack a QB, you make sure the pass isn't even attempted, plus they more than likely lose yardage.

How often has Brady, Manning, Rogers, hell, even Sanchez get hurried and still complete passes?

Probably a lot, as the Pats Cover 3 doesn't protect the short middle and flats as well as the Bengals' Cover 2 base does, which is where dumpoff throws usually happen.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Here's another observation that seems to suggest that Reiss may not be completely off in his analysis:

One player who can’t be happy with the signings of Ellis and Carter has to be Jermaine Cunningham, who it seems will lose his starting job. He struggled today and was pushed around a bit by Sebastian Vollmer during drills. Carter practiced and is wearing #68. Didn’t see too much from him one way or the other as he is being eased into the lineup.

Patriots Training Camp Monday Afternoon Observations ats Pub