Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by SVN, Jan 27, 2014.
Jerry Angelo's view on misguided New England Patriots plan - ESPN Boston
Reiss is on the mark in the last 2 paragraphs of his response.
The Patriots offered to pay market rates for Gronkowski, Hernandez and Welker. 2 accepted; 1 of the 3 foolishly declined, then immediately regretted his choice.
2 of those 3 were Pro Bowlers.
I fail to see the underinvestment.
Tough to find anything wrong in Angelo's analysis, though I'd say that the idea should be 'emphasize' rather than 'build'.
Also, Reiss needs to spend more time reading Patsfans.com. There were some people worried about the Gronk and Hernandez signings (more Hernandez than Gronk, as I recall), although the overwhelming majority thought the benefits outweighed the risks, and there were a lot more people worried about Amendola replacing Welker. Context wasn't forgotten.
Reiss' analysis is spot-on. If Eric Decker misses the whole season, Demaryius Thomas plays only 4 games, and Wes Welker plays 12 games but most of those with a nagging injury, while Knowshon Moreno misses 10 games, then Peyton Manning probably isn't breaking any records. He might make the playoffs, but the AFC Championship Game is definitely a longshot.
Decision-making could have been different, and it probably could have been better (...and what if they take Keenan Allen rather than Aaron Dobson?) but after the draft I felt pretty good about the offense, even allowing Gronk taking longer to recover than expected. Though I was one who implored people not to forget about Edelman.
I agree with Reiss, but I don't think Angelo's wrong on many aspects of BB's coaching style.
There are places where i'd love to see an adjustment by BB (PASS RUSH!).
I remember seeing BB a few years ago talking about how sacks are overrated...I don't know, but I think you need to have a four-man line who can rush the passer consistently to beat the great ones, and the NFL is full of great ones. Give them time and they'll kill ya.
In this case, I think Angelo's missing the boat on Denver, too. Denver's 3 most dangerous targets were cost-controlled rookie-deal players, which allowed them to bring Peyton into the perfect storm. Adding Welker was a great move by Elway, I'll give them that. Perfect compliment.
I also (ducking tomatoes) think that the ability to make the most out of his receivers is Peyton's strongest attribute. I also think this is one area where he's got Brady beat, hands down.
So according to Angelo BB should have anticipated having Gronk, Ahern and Amendola injured or imprisoned? Take the Thomases out of the Bronco's line-up and Mannning faces a similar situation.
Hindsight is always 20/20. Probably why Angelo hasn't been employed the last few years.
I was all set to agree with Angelo. We knew going into last offseason that we needed a true field stretching outside receiver and it wasn't addressed through free agency.
Then I remembered that there were no viable options in free agency! Jerry, there was no Demaryius Thomas or Eric Decker or Julius Thomas out there.
Mike Wallace and Greg Jennings- Both outspoken, me first types looking for big money contracts. We obviously dodged a bullet with Wallace. Jennings, although a nice player, got a contract worth upwards of $50M. Absolute insanity for a 30 year old receiver.
Anquan Boldin- who never ended up hitting the market. Anyone who thinks we could have made a trade for him is crazy. He ended up in the NFC for a reason.
Beyond that things are pretty bleak. Some names: Danny Amendola, Brian Hartline, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Denario Alexander, Emmanuel Sanders and Wes (the assassin) Welker. The Pats were in active negotiations with 3 of these players, but there are hardly any difference making outside receivers to be found.
As far as hybrid TE types like Jared Cook, Dustin Keller and Delanie Walker, the Pats were hardly going to put up and money for these guys with Gronk and AHern on the roster.
So Jerry, while the need was there the market wasn't. I think BB was well aware of it and did the best he could. This offseason presents another opportunity.
1.) Glass players. Every veteran receiver of note was a glass man.
2.) Rookie WRs. With some exceptions, rookie WRs don't get it done.
BB knew this, and he still got rid of his top 2 WRs from the previous season. He planned poorly. Angelo is right on this.
Exactly this, and what several others have said also in this thread. Gronk/Hernandez/Dobson/Boyce were drafted in similar positions as Thomas/Decker/Thomas were by the Broncos. To me, Welker's production in Denver was replaced here by Edelman (not Amendola), but I can understand if people want to criticize that particular piece of it.
The article makes it sound like Brady's receiving corp was ignored to build up other areas of the team, but that's just not true. Circumstances and bad luck are as much responsible as any flawed 'master plan' here.
I find it difficult to take Angelo's assessment that seriously when he take into consideration the losses of Gronk and The Prisoner. If Demaryius Thomas was lost for all but a few games, and Eric Decker was out forever, would Angelo be saying the same thing about Denver's lack of foresight and poor roster building?
If Brandon Tate, Taylor Price or Brandon Lloyd had panned out, things would look very different. Poor personnel judgement, perhaps, but not poor strategy.
Former Bears General Manager Jerry Angelo, FORMER. Can't rag on BB for not predicting Hernandez to get busted for killing like 3 people and Gronk to get hurt again as well as Amendola hurting his groin. Shoulda brought back Welker but, things wouldn't have been nearly as bad with healthy Gronk and freed Hernandez. Hell if two of Dobson, Thompkins, and Boyce had been healthy for the AFCCG things may have been different. Instead we only had a hurt Dobson.
Thomas has had one injury, his foot injury. He was coming off of a full 16 game season.
Decker has played in 62 of 64 games, missing only 2 games in his rookie season.
Welker, as we know, had been a relative ironman at the time of his signing.
Denver wasn't leaving Manning saddled with a glass menagerie and a bunch of rookies. It's a world of difference.
I do agree that BB has focused, perhaps too much, on the system, both offensively and defensively. Just look at how long it took to find a coverage linebacker that fitted the system (240lb plus). But it's hard not to fall in love with a system that almost guarantees an AFCCG every year.
Yeah, I'm going to have to agree a bit more with Deus and Jerry Angelo, even though I can obviously understand the other side of the coin too. Belichick liked his system, has had success with it, and has built a strong competitor. He couldn't have predicted the situations with Gronk/AH, etc...but he could've done more to offset those losses when he definitely knew in June what was going on.
Where I believe he screwed up---was not choosing to be proactive in bringing in one more capable receiving option during the 3rd week of June. That would have given the new guy 10+ weeks to get acclimated to our system, along with an entire training camp and preseason. It's this aspect that pushes me from one side to the other, although it's close. We've seen some hints of "desperation" moves (mainly in the past 2 trade deadlines), and we could've used another one, even if it meant giving up a 3rd rounder for 4th round talent under these extreme circumstances.
1. I understand what you are saying but injury histories are the rule rather than the exception in the NFL. None of the injuries to Gronk or Amendola was any more predictable than Mayo's, whose history was clean, or Vollmer's, whose bad back does not portend a broken leg. I was opposed to the Amendola signing, as you may recall, but based on performance not the likelihood of a groin injury. I was opposed to playing Gronk with his arm hanging by his side, but that did not tear his ACL. The injury history stuff makes for heated debate but sheds little light. Teams try to take injuries into account as much as possible, but crystal balls are simply murky on this point. I will review with interest should anyone care to divulge their IR predictions for 2014.
2. Fully agree that rookie WRs cannot be relied upon (which is the reason we should not get another one this draft). But Dobson and Thompkins were great complementary pieces had the primary pieces been in play. There is a domino effect here just like there was with our DBs when Talib went down. Dennard is a fine CB2, but inadequate as CB1. That's why we need to try to re-sign Talib; otherwise we return to the draft roulette which has not been kind to our defensive backs. I say this despite the fact that Talib has a recurring injury (hip) because if we do not sign him there is a virtual certainty our defensive backfield will revert to previous years. It is a gamble. Every player is to one degree or another in this violent game. You weigh the risks taking into account everything else, including the ability to replace the talent.
It was hard to impossible to predict what was going to happen with Hernandez. But Gronk had injury issues dating back to the 2011 AFCCG and the issues with the forearm were well reported. Amendola's injury history was also checkered and, surprise, he got injured again this season. Edelman, for that matter, also has an injury history but, luckily, was able to remain healthy this season. After that, they relied on rookies, JAGs, and a cast off with concussion issues in the passing game. Not really all that hard to disagree with Angelo here.
Remember that Donald Jones had to retire because of kidney problems. He may of been the veteran presence to ease in the rookies that BB wanted.
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