Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by IcyPatriot, Aug 8, 2008.
The war was won in the space of several weeks in the Spring of 2003.
The past 5 years have been an Occupation. You cannot "win" a geographically non-contiguous Occupation through military alone - - history clearly shows that.
The proof in the pudding will be whether Iraq can maintain a stable, democratic, peaceful society AFTER the US troops pullout. F.B.N., I formerly worked on that area of the world for our Gov't (during the Reagan and Bush I Administrations) and I am HIGHLY skeptical that that goal is realistic. Whether we withdraw in 1 year or 10 years, I am sad to say we have basically created South Iran.
PoFo post of the year...
in the immortal words of Principal Skinner after seeing Bart's science project:
"i don't need to see the other projects, i've made up my mind... FIRST PRIZE!"
FBN, i gotta say... i get what you're trying to do here... i get it...
yes, the surge, coincidentally, has been effectively timed... the level of violence is temporarily down... Harry and Nancy look foolish, and it's a nice soundbyte...
but if you're going to sit here and pretend the surge is some sort of battle field tactical brilliance that effectively neutralized AQ, and stablized Iraq, well, you're missing the bigger picture here... the reason you and your "invasion was necessary" allies are trumpeting "victory" in Iraq has exponentially more to do with money and paying off a large swath of very angry people... yes, that's right... money quieted Iraq... not 26,000 extra ground troops...
too late... it was a loss from the moment 11,000 Iraqi civilians lost their lives the first two nights in our "strategic bombing campaign" ... Sorry, you can never get that back... I won't even speculate on the civilian death toll since... go ahead, throw a lowball estimate out there for a figure, whatever you like... 40,000? 100,000? 250,000? ... does it matter?
the U.S. isn't winning, it's buying... stop and accept that, for a moment, if you will... and then admit to yourself that, despite our "surge," ... they still hate us, and will never, EVER trust us... and they still hate eachother... i mean REALLY hate eachother now...
or, wait... are you still convinced that the average Iraqi mostly views America as saviors?...
get something through your heads, all you 'invasion-was-necessary' ideologues: ... our government knew the score and had all the warnings presented to them, but it went ahead and unleashed "28 Days Later" on that country anyway... people were being dragged out of their homes in the middle of the night, and having their heads chopped off... nightly.... consider 2 MILLION refugees .... no electricity, no sanitation... for YEARS... city block murders on a nightly basis, that will never be forgiven or fogotten... and you think a municipality can co-exist and just go back to cohesion because we halted the death squads 2 years later, after most people had already run for their lives?
it never needed to be that way, ... but the neocons willfully eliminated civil order, and never deployed the manpower to sustain civil order... ... nor the intention.... museums, federal buildings, concert halls, universities, sewage treatment plants? all looted and ransacked... records never to be recovered, from centuries upon centuries ...
the summer of 2003 was a collossal failure for this great nation, one that will survive the history books, no matter how desperately the Con men try and re-write history and paint Boy King as a hero.....
that's right... a failure of epic proportions, and it increasingly appears no one will ever truly be held accountable for that ... how does that make you feel, FBN? seriously? ....
i mean, i think even you have accepted some undeniable levels of fraud in this whole campaign... here and there, i remember you capitulating a few elements ... were you OK with it all?
but, whatever... if you're simply trying to suggest that goofy Reid and Pelosi speak for a progressive America... oops... they really don't... never really did... it's just that they were a bit less reprehensible than repressed guys like Hastert and DeLay ...
however, if you're trying to hold a trophy over your head, and suggest that Iraq is some kind of victory and testament to American will power? well, sorry.... it's not... and no amount of your dismissive "people die in war" fallback rationale will EVER save the morality of your position overall...
America failed... it's control of 11% of the world's remaing cheap crude will never change that...
Godamn The Obama War
Stay Out Of Darfur
No More War
We Won't Go
Leadership at it's finest.
You're head is so full of sh!t you think you can speak for me. You could never speak for me because I am an optimist and you are a pessimist ... and it's not even close.
This is what the vicotry is about ... you're so close minded and pessimistic you simply don't see it.
Check out this story ... this is our victory. Our victory is that these people now have a say in their own countries affairs. They now live for their country and they now protect their country ... something that would have never happened without the surge. You need a brain enema to cleanse your brain of the crap you read in those America hating socialist loving websites.
THIS IS OUR VICTORY LEFTIES ... THIS IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE.
Troops from the 1st Iraqi Army Division celebrate while passing through Jalulah.
Photo by Bill Murray
Oh I know it hurts to admit it. The left keeps saying the victory was in the first few weeks and months. NO ... the victory is in making Iraq a democratic state where the people can care for themselves .. that IS THE VICTORY.
LOL... look at you all riled up when the reality of this calamity is reminded to you...
anyhow, when you're done hyperventilating... tell us how much say Sunnis have in their country... Tell us how 5 years of murder will be forgotten and Iraqis will go back to harmony...
There isn't harmony in any country ... ours included.
Give people credit when they deserve it mr. curmudgeon.
Oh, i give them credit... i gave them credit for laying down their arms by May of 2003 and looking to our leadership for direction and hope... Unfortunately, your heroes decided to put the entire municipality and army out of work and let everything be looted...
I give them credit for running for their lives by crossing the border into Jordan and Syria and saving themselves... I give them credit for demanding, time and time again, that we get the hell out, even though it continuously falls upon deaf ears as we set up more and more private corporations and building contracts...
However, your assessment is pathetic.... While we lack harmony at times, We're not killing eachother in droves over here... When was the last car bomb?
And guess what? That'll never end over there now... And there will never be any real democracy there... Are you proud of that legacy? Was it worth the 200,000 dead?
As was said before the war was won in '03. As far as the escalation aka surge goes i give more credit to the tribes coming toghether and kicking most of AQ out. So you mean the occupation is over,or going to be on the ah Horizon.
Again the war is won.....Ahh check back with me in a year. Nothing has stopped these people from killing each other for the last 4,000 years except occupation or a dictator.
Thats a great picture. But if the war is won why are a number of them Hidding Their Faces? Well.....
Charlie Wilson and the Mujahadeen say "hi".
Once again, FBN, the war was won in 2003. If the goal was to knock off Saddam, then yes, big victory. If the goal is to enable a democratic and friendly to the West Iraq - - then I have some wonderful Iowa oceanfront property to sell you.
Cling to the jingoism as you like - - but there is only "managing at great cost". Rule number one is to understand the terrain.
The "great victory" belongs to Iran, because ignoramuses in this Administration have handed them their newest Southern Province on a gold plate. They, as you, still don't understand the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite. Nuri al-Maliki already is Iran's favorite foreign leader, because he ain't that foreign to them. Saddam was Iran's worst enemy - - persistently worse than the US or Israel could ever be. In addition, Saddam kept the vast Shiite Iraqi majority barefoot and pregnant - - now W has unleashed them. A victory for "democracy" in the short-term? Yes. A victory for the US and US interests in the long-term? Read a book.
If we REALLY wanted "victory" over there, we would have spent 2-3 billion dollars to have someone on the inside knock off Saddam, spend a far greater amount on Afghanistan and getting Bin Laden's head on a skewer and sat back and watch Ahmadinejad's Gov't fall to massive protests (as it would have on its own had we not made him a hero to his own people despite his complete screwing up of the Iranian economy). Then we would have poured the trillion plus dollars that were wasted on "W's Oedipal Revenge on Daddy's Legacy" (now there's an interesting take you should look at - - see James Baker's critiques of what's happening) into OUR economy and armed forces to make OUR country stronger (instead of our record deficits silmultaneous to Shiite Iraq's record surplusses).
But go ahead. Make yourself feel better about this situation.
That being said, the quotes by Reid in 2007 are just as moronic and ignorant. He also is talking about some type of "war" when even then it was an occupation/police action 4 years after a successful war.
It really is tragic to see people play politics with what's going on over there. It's funny how some people in here are now saying that the war was "won" in 2003, yet the majority leader of the house said last year that we lost. When things were going awful over there, none on the critics, who had every right to criticize, were saying "we won in 2003 though". Personally, if I had it to do all over again, I'd still stick to my prewar opinion of not invading at all. However, we did, things sucked for a long, long time, and now they seem to finally be turning the corner. I for one am cautiously optimistic about the current turn around. Hopefully it's long lasting. I stress hopefully.
On that hill in Washinton its all politics all the time on both sides.
What's funny about your saying that is how it's exactly what we didn;t do this time, despite the desires of a particular party. Had the Dems had their way, it would have been the mujahadeen redux over there. Thankfully it's not.
So true flex, which is why it doesn't have to be here. At least not all the time. Hey, it's almost 8 o'clock, can I start drinking now?
Could you please explain what the heck you mean by that? Do you actually believe that future Iraqi leaders are going to be anything like Nuri Al Maliki??????
And number two, aren't YOU the one complaining about partisan politics in this thread??? Your above post is the pot calling the kettle black a bit, no?
Note, I have been critiquing the policy action and this particular administration - - not the RNC. I also commended on many occasions the father of the current President under whom I worked during the very successful (regarding it's limited objectives) Desert Storm. I also wrote how ignorant Reid's take was also. I am lamenting the non-professionalism and ignorance of our leadership on both sides of the aisle. People who have no knowledge of the Middle East are making the decisions and it is tragic to our country.
Why of course by ALL MEANS knock youself out.
Separate names with a comma.