Really? A place kicker controversy in New England?

[Froob]

The Jets kick broke a tie. If he missed, the Patriots are still in it. Not apples to apples.

He made one to tie it as well. Both were long fields goals if I remember correctly.

 

[lurker1965]

...

What people here forget so easily is that Belichick let the greatest glutch kicker of all time, who single handedly won one super bowl, a huge contributor on the second (frozen kick against Tenn anyone?) and nailed that pressure kick against the Panthers was showed the door for wanting too much money.
...

Dear fool,

You want to re-cast the losing a Vinateiri now that time has past? Nice try.

Being a Free Agent and getting an offer that expires as soon as you leave this room - before anyone can match it - is being shown the door for wanting too much money to you? Don't bogart that joint, my friend.

 

[DaBruinz]

Pretty good, actually:

Shayne Graham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

14-14 on FGAs (surprisingly 35-37 on PATs).

The point remains, that Vinitraitor became legend in his 6th season; Ghost was over-paid,
based on his performance, in his 7th season. If he continues this trend, then he should not
be here for his 9th season.

Since you mentioned him being 14-14, why don't you mention that the longest that BB allowed him to attempt was only 41 yards compared to the 53 yard he made last year? Why don't you mention that Graham also missed 2 extra points?


It's always amazing how people ignore the other half of the kicking game. You know, KICK-OFFS. How did Graham do there?

Graham had 62 Kick-offs with 59 returns averaging a paltry 61.3 yards per kick with an average return of 22.1 YPR. Compared to Gostkowski who had 111 kick-offs with 59 returns averaging 65 yards per kick-off and an average return of 20.7 YPR. So, Graham had all of 3 touch backs. And you're complaining about the 52 TBs that Gostkowski had?

But, yes, let's focus on the missed kick that would have only made a difference in the won/loss column and act like it cost the Patriots their season.

The people hating on Gostkowski are just like the ones who have been hating on Slater.. It's ridiculous and shows that how you don't really know the team that well.

 

[Patjew]

The Jets kick broke a tie. If he missed, the Patriots are still in it. Not apples to apples.

Incorrect. He kicked a long one to tie it at the end of regulation.

 

[supafly]

Reason #86 why the off-season makes me want to stick needles in my eyes:

Bleacher Report Dot Com is up to its old tricks creating a "controversy" that is no more than your usual camp competition for every job. But here you go - endless video of place kicks and photos of a worried Gostkowski.

Check it out: New England Patriots: Are the Pats Looking to Replace Kicker Stephen Gostkowski? | Bleacher Report

Not really seeing the big deal myself.

Gostkowski was ranked 17th in touchback percentage, 16th in overall starting field position, (the first 2 things anyone brings up for reasons to keep him--"he's got a big leg on kickoffs" ), and was 19th in field goal percentage.

Do those sound like numbers for someone who is currently the 3rd highest paid kicker in the league? They don't to me. On top of that, we've seen him miss some pretty short/average kicks in the past, although some of that could have been due to his injury too.

I don't really have a horse in this race, but if Belichick chooses to go in a different direction then I'll support it. I don't personally think that Gost should be considered "bad" on any level, but I can also see the reasoning in considering him nothing more than average-good at the same time. In a world where there are many kickers who are deemed better and come cheaper, articles like this are going to be written.

For what it's worth, I don't think there is a change myself.

 

[supafly]

Incorrect. He kicked a long one to tie it at the end of regulation.

Yes, the NYJ game was a perfect example of a game where Gostkowski really stepped up and made 2 huge kicks to win the game.

One was at the end of regulation to send it into OT, and the other was to win the game in OT. IIRC, both kicks were of the longer variety.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Gostkowski makes a lot of money. As far as his clutchness is concerned, I think people overestimate other kickers in that regard, because you won't find many kickers around the NFL that haven't screwed the pooch, from time to time, as badly as he did against Arizona. Yeah, every year you can point to a guy that hits almost all of his attempts, but if you look at that same guy the year before and the year after, you tend to realize that that's mostly just related to outside factors and small sample size. Compared to the other kickers in the NFL, Gostkowski is objectively somewhere between pretty good and very good. He's not the best, but he's a genuine asset. That said, there should still be a legit competition in camp, simply because of his contract.

I don't dislike the guy, and I'd bet that he'll win any TC competition that he's in. But that's the downside, if you can call it that, to making the money that he makes. If his production ever falls into the general ballpark of replacement-level, he's pretty much gone.

 

[DaBruinz]

Not really seeing the big deal myself.

Gostkowski was ranked 17th in touchback percentage, 16th in overall starting field position, (the first 2 things anyone brings up for reasons to keep him--"he's got a big leg on kickoffs" ), and was 19th in field goal percentage.

Do those sound like numbers for someone who is currently the 3rd highest paid kicker in the league? They don't to me. On top of that, we've seen him miss some pretty short/average kicks in the past, although some of that could have been due to his injury too.

I don't really have a horse in this race, but if Belichick chooses to go in a different direction then I'll support it. I don't personally think that Gost should be considered "bad" on any level, but I can also see the reasoning in considering him nothing more than average-good at the same time. In a world where there are many kickers who are deemed better and come cheaper, articles like this are going to be written.

For what it's worth, I don't think there is a change myself.

First off, TB% doesn't mean jack. He was 4th in the league in total Touch backs. You are over-looking the fact that he led the league in Kick-offs. His avg. Kick-off was 65 yards and the average return was only 20.7 yards (3rd in the league). There were only 2 who gave up fewer yards than the Patriots on returns. That was the Panther (18.9) and Browns (19.8) The problem is that their kick offs only averaged 62.8 and 63.8 respectively.

Could you please show me where you got the stat that claims that opposing teams were middle of the road in terms of starting field positions on Kick-offs?

 

[supafly]

First off, TB% doesn't mean jack. He was 4th in the league in total Touch backs. You are over-looking the fact that he led the league in Kick-offs. His avg. Kick-off was 65 yards and the average return was only 20.7 yards (3rd in the league). There were only 2 who gave up fewer yards than the Patriots on returns. That was the Panther (18.9) and Browns (19.8) The problem is that their kick offs only averaged 62.8 and 63.8 respectively.

Could you please show me where you got the stat that claims that opposing teams were middle of the road in terms of starting field positions on Kick-offs?

The stats are in the article that we're speaking of, but it also isn't the first time that it's been brought up. There have been numerous Gostkowski threads and debates, mostly stemming from his botched kicks in weeks 2 and 3 of last season + the season in 2010 when he was injured/recovering from injury. When a kicker is missing FG's that are in the 30's and 40's yard-wise, you're going to have a lot of debates as to his effectiveness.

I get it that you are "pro-Gostkowski," like I said I don't really care one way or another, but I can totally respect the debate in and of itself. He's a high priced kicker who has been good but not great, so we may as well expect these kinds of debates another year. I don't personally think he's going anywhere right now. I'd expect him to stay here through 2013, and possibly longer depending on his effectiveness this season.

All in all, I like him. I also understand that it's a business and that there is a debate that he may not be worth the money he's making. That is left for better minds than us to decide.

 

[jbb9s]

I wouldn't say he's marginalized. As it is, he gets tons of touchbacks, and even when he doesn't, teams have a hard time capitalizing on them (the Pats allowed an average of 20.7 YPR, fourth-best in the league).

So I'd say on KOs he's doing pretty much exactly what BB wants.

Please answer: a larger subset of kickers can do "pretty much exactly what BB wants" before or after the rule change? I am not saying Ghost isn't performing well; I am saying more people could do it to the same level. There is a difference.

This kid is a "nobody" in the sense Chris Koppellin was a nobody. Noone even picked him (David Ruffer) up last year after the 2012 draft.

1.) He was terrible his Senior Year.

2.) No team gave him a chance after the 2012 draft. He's been out of football for a year.

3.) In the 2012 draft, he was ranked the 9th best kicker (NFLdraftScout). If you aren't top 5, your NFL chances are close to none. Just like you say, only a couple get drafted, and only a few get picked up as UDFAs.

This guy is a camp leg, not competition for Gost.

You may be right on all your points, but I ask you this: why out of all the available kickers would BB bring in a scrub? Why if he just wants a "camp leg" would he not bring in someone better?

Dear fool,

You want to re-cast the losing a Vinateiri now that time has past? Nice try.

Being a Free Agent and getting an offer that expires as soon as you leave this room - before anyone can match it - is being shown the door for wanting too much money to you? Don't bogart that joint, my friend.

I don't understand your comments. Are you saying I am a fool for implying that the Colts were willing to pay more for Adam than the Patriots?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Please answer: a larger subset of kickers can do "pretty much exactly what BB wants" before or after the rule change? I am not saying Ghost isn't performing well; I am saying more people could do it to the same level. There is a difference.

I would say "not quite." Not all of them are strong enough to get the kick deep into the EZ consistently.

You may be right on all your points, but I ask you this: why out of all the available kickers would BB bring in a scrub? Why if he just wants a "camp leg" would he not bring in someone better?

If all he represents is an extra leg to save wear and tear on Gostkowski, then pretty much any leg will do. OTOH, if he were meant as serious competition, why wait until well after the draft to sign a guy who's been out of football for a year?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

The stats are in the article that we're speaking of,

FWIW, a number of that article's claims are spurious at best. For example, he claims the Pats were 17th in TB percentage last year; in fact, they were 12th.

Similarly, he makes this dubious claim:

So, Gostkowski isn't elite, and at 29 years of age, he likely isn't getting any better.

Unfortunately, pro-football-reference.com doesn't track KO stats, so I don't have anything to go by there, but we do know that Gostkowski kicked 90% of his FG attempts back in 2008. If you look at the kickers who've replicated that feat (with at least 20 FG attempts), the median age at which that occurs is 32, and only three kickers younger than 2008 Gostkowski did it.

 

[Spiral]

Post from February:

If you're looking for cap savings, you need to look past Brady, Mankins, Wilfork and Mayo. Right after Mayo is Lloyd, with $5M in new money due him in 2013, and at #7 is Gostkowski with a $2.5M 2013 salary and a $3.4M cap number. After he injured his leg a couple of years ago, Gostkowski is no better than an average NFL kicker. Lloyd's value has been discussed elsewhere on this site. With a flat cap for the next two years, the Patriots are really going to be assessing the value of each player and contract. Those two contracts don't seem to be good values, IMO.

My guess is that once we get close to cut-down day and we move from the "Top 51" salary cap to the real salary cap, there are going to be some decent players available before the start of the season. BB may want to keep his salary cap options open in anticipation. Bring in a free-agent PK, and keep your options open if someone becomes available. Good, low-risk move.

 

[DaBruinz]

The stats are in the article that we're speaking of, but it also isn't the first time that it's been brought up. There have been numerous Gostkowski threads and debates, mostly stemming from his botched kicks in weeks 2 and 3 of last season + the season in 2010 when he was injured/recovering from injury. When a kicker is missing FG's that are in the 30's and 40's yard-wise, you're going to have a lot of debates as to his effectiveness.

I get it that you are "pro-Gostkowski," like I said I don't really care one way or another, but I can totally respect the debate in and of itself. He's a high priced kicker who has been good but not great, so we may as well expect these kinds of debates another year. I don't personally think he's going anywhere right now. I'd expect him to stay here through 2013, and possibly longer depending on his effectiveness this season.

All in all, I like him. I also understand that it's a business and that there is a debate that he may not be worth the money he's making. That is left for better minds than us to decide.

Those "stats" come from some site called "The football database", not the NFL website.

The NFL website had Gostkowski at 65 yards per kick, NOT 63.6 per the Football Database. Probably because the NFL has Gostkowski's total kick yardage at 7,214 and not 7,061
BTW, the article mentions nothing about the Pats being "16th in overall starting field position".

I understand it's a business, but I also understand using facts and not some hack website to support your claims.

Gostkowski had 1 kick that he missed that would have changed the outcome of any of the games last year. Just 1. Out of the 6 misses that he had.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

I think kickers make their money by kicking 30-49 yard field goals. You can't take away Gostkowski's two FGs over 50 last year, but you also can't count on that. He missed six kicks between 30 and 49. That's not good enough. No kicker missed more, except Akers. There are a few kickers whose numbers suggest if they'd had more attempts they might have missed more, like Vinatieri. But last year was a bad year for Gostkowski. No two ways about it. Sebastian Janikowski missed zero 30-49 yarders last year and five in the last 3 years. Is it fair to compare Gostkowski to the best kicker in the league? Probably not. But their salaries aren't that dramatically different.

82.9 percent was a good percentage at one point in time, but it's not now. Kickers are too good for any team that wants to be where the Patriots want to be to be carrying a kicker who kicks 83 percent.

Anyone can have a bad year, but he needs to kick better this year or he deserves every criticism he gets.

 

[supafly]

Those "stats" come from some site called "The football database", not the NFL website.

The NFL website had Gostkowski at 65 yards per kick, NOT 63.6 per the Football Database. Probably because the NFL has Gostkowski's total kick yardage at 7,214 and not 7,061
BTW, the article mentions nothing about the Pats being "16th in overall starting field position".

I understand it's a business, but I also understand using facts and not some hack website to support your claims.

I don't know if you're referring to the author of the article or me, but I'm not claiming anything. If the stats were wrong that's the author's fault, not mine. I'm just pointing out what it said.

Gostkowski had 1 kick that he missed that would have changed the outcome of any of the games last year. Just 1. Out of the 6 misses that he had.

What game are you speaking of, because I'm counting 2 games in the first three of the season.

The missed kick vs ARZ in week 2, and the missed kick vs BAL in week 3 both would have won the game had he not missed a FG.

At any rate, like I said multiple times..I really don't care all that much, but I can also respect the debate in and of itself.

I actually like Gostkowski a lot, and as I stated I doubt he goes anywhere.

 

[supafly]

I think kickers make their money by kicking 30-49 yard field goals. You can't take away Gostkowski's two FGs over 50 last year, but you also can't count on that. He missed six kicks between 30 and 49. That's not good enough. No kicker missed more, except Akers. There are a few kickers whose numbers suggest if they'd had more attempts they might have missed more, like Vinatieri. But last year was a bad year for Gostkowski. No two ways about it. Sebastian Janikowski missed zero 30-49 yarders last year and five in the last 3 years. Is it fair to compare Gostkowski to the best kicker in the league? Probably not. But their salaries aren't that dramatically different.

82.9 percent was a good percentage at one point in time, but it's not now. Kickers are too good for any team that wants to be where the Patriots want to be to be carrying a kicker who kicks 83 percent.

Anyone can have a bad year, but he needs to kick better this year or he deserves every criticism he gets.

I think that you have a valid point. While we all want to see Gostkowski stay and continue to do well (for the most part), there are going to be articles and questions that arise about his overall value and worth to the team; especially since he's the 3rd highest kicker in the league.

Let's hope that he improves upon that 30-49 range and that he remains a Patriot for many yrs to come.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I think kickers make their money by kicking 30-49 yard field goals. You can't take away Gostkowski's two FGs over 50 last year, but you also can't count on that. He missed six kicks between 30 and 49. That's not good enough. No kicker missed more, except Akers. There are a few kickers whose numbers suggest if they'd had more attempts they might have missed more, like Vinatieri. But last year was a bad year for Gostkowski. No two ways about it. Sebastian Janikowski missed zero 30-49 yarders last year and five in the last 3 years. Is it fair to compare Gostkowski to the best kicker in the league? Probably not. But their salaries aren't that dramatically different.

82.9 percent was a good percentage at one point in time, but it's not now. Kickers are too good for any team that wants to be where the Patriots want to be to be carrying a kicker who kicks 83 percent.

Anyone can have a bad year, but he needs to kick better this year or he deserves every criticism he gets.

That pretty much captures how I see it.

Gostkowski is "good enough" and then some and I don't see an obvious alternative in the picture so let's see how it plays out this season. But, I hope that Brady keeps putting up a lot of points, because my nerves couldn't take too many games coming down to an FG attempt in the final minute or so with Gostkowski on the field.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

82.9 percent was a good percentage at one point in time, but it's not now. Kickers are too good for any team that wants to be where the Patriots want to be to be carrying a kicker who kicks 83 percent.

Yes, kickers are getting better, but two-thirds of the kickers in the league have career averages below that number.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I don't know if you're referring to the author of the article or me, but I'm not claiming anything. If the stats were wrong that's the author's fault, not mine. I'm just pointing out what it said.



What game are you speaking of, because I'm counting 2 games in the first three of the season.

The missed kick vs ARZ in week 2, and the missed kick vs BAL in week 3 both would have won the game had he not missed a FG.

At any rate, like I said multiple times..I really don't care all that much, but I can also respect the debate in and of itself.

I actually like Gostkowski a lot, and as I stated I doubt he goes anywhere.

I agree with the exception being that Ghost did not miss the kick in BAL; the refs called it wrong.

EDIT: English must be my tertiary language with poor pronoun reference. The refs called "it" the BAL kick wrong; it was a miss