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Reality check: Belichick post-2004

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by richpats, Feb 7, 2008.

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  1. richpats

    richpats Banned

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    This SB loss exposes an obvious decline in the quality of our coaching staff since Weis/Crennel departed. Of course, there is some dropoff expected because those guys were great coordinators - but if an undefeated team can be outcoached in a SB, that worries me for future seasons, most of which NE won't have the best team out there.

    Our coaching staff has been outcoached in our last 3 playoff losses. Belichick has not had the same effectiveness that he had in our 3 SB runs.

    In the playoffs from 2005-2007, he defeated the following coaches: Del Rio (twice), Mangini, Schottenheimer and Norv Turner - none of these coaches has even taken a team to a Super Bowl. Fitting that his losses were to Shanahan, Dungy and Coughlin - all coaches who have taken their teams to a SB.

    Compare that to his run from 2001-2004: he defeated SEVEN different coaches that have taken a team to a SB - Dungy (twice), Cowher (twice), Gruden, Martz, Fisher, Fox and Reid.

    Just think about all the close games NE had this year - they were against coaches that had taken a team to a SB, even coaches with average/mediocre teams (Philly, Baltimore). Belichick pulled these out in the end but he was outcoached or evenly matched for a majority of the game.
    And when he was matched up against one of those coaches again, he ultimately failed.

    I think this puts 2001-2004 and 2005-present in perspective - the Patriots were a different team with Weis/Crennel and the current version is going through a series of disappointing losses, not unlike the Colts of a few years back. I don't feel that simply having Belichick will guarantee another SB title, we need improvement from our coordinators.
     
  2. BadMoFo

    BadMoFo Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    I guess we should just wait for Dungy to retire and nab him.
     
  3. Hok

    Hok Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    If one play went differently on Sunday, Belichick would've coached the team to the best record in history.

    I'm not sure where that fits in with your theory.
     
  4. nashvillepatsfan

    nashvillepatsfan In the Starting Line-Up

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    while i'll agree that josh did not have a good s.b., i thought his playcalling improved this year. special teams seemed fine. as for defense, hmmm. did anyone else notice that b.b. spent alot of time on one knee talking to the defense, drawing out plays etc, this year, compared to past years???? it really makes me wonder about dean. maybe if b.b. was paying attention to how bad our o-line was doing, instead of talking to the l.b.'s, we wouldve seen some adjustments. overall, i think our coaching staff is still the best out there, but i do have concerns about the defense. bottom line, our coaches did win 18 games this year. not too shabby:D
     
  5. Harry Yelreh

    Harry Yelreh On the Roster

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    Cha-ching.
     
  6. MassPats38

    MassPats38 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Few teams that can call themselves conference champions have coaching issues. The fact is some times teams lose even when they are well-coached. The Buffalo Bills went to the Super Bowl 4 years in a row and lost. Does that make them outcoached when they kept walking away as the second best team in the NFL?

    Very few people had anyhing to say about coaching for the prior 18 games when the Pats were lighting up the scoreboard. In that one loss, the coaches did not suddenly become crappy. It was a bad game and a single loss at the worst time, but 30 other teams would kill themselves to be in that position.

    Denver in 2005 was uncharacteristic turnovers, not coaching. The personnel did not do the job on the field. Last year against Indy, the Colts wore an older defense down on a fast track. Coaching would not save the bad personnel match-ups. This year the offensive line was not doing its job, as evidenced by the 16 or so shots Brady took during the game. Watch the game and count how long Brady had to throw the ball and the fact Maroney was getting nailed behind the line. Even short passes require 2 seconds to let the quarterback drop back, see the receiver and throw the ball. There isn't much a coach could do in the way of playcalling to fix that problem.

    Second sucks, but the team was competitive on the scoreboard until the end of the final game. I for one am not lobbying for organizational changes.
     
  7. patsfaninpa

    patsfaninpa In the Starting Line-Up

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    Pats have won more playoff games than Indy since 04. More playoff wins than any other team in the league. Look it up. You don't always get out-coached when you lose. It's difficult to beat playoff teams consistently. We are 5-3 in them since last Super Bowl.
     
  8. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Hey dum dum. There are 31 other teams. Being #1 3 years out of 4, followed by being good enough for the divisional round (Denver), Top 4 (Colts loss,) and #2 in rapid succession, sorta puts you in some pretty rare company.

    I'm not one to trumpet mediocrity, and I'm as crushed by the loss as anybody. But get a grip.

    Yeah, BB's life has gotten more complicated. I think it's a testament to him that since the 2005 offseason exodus, he's climbed with this team right back to within few ticks of 4 out of 7.

    Tellya what. Tell me which head coach you'd prefer.

    PFnV
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2008
  9. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We lost the Superbowl, difficult to infer all that is being inferred here.. there are problems, but the problems will be solved.. the reality of the NFL is that coordinators move on.. the Pats set all kinds of scoring records this year.. Brady had a bad ankle in the SB not sure how anyone can blame, but then again it is easy to complain.
     
  10. richpats

    richpats Banned

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    That was the point of the thread guys- I'm not calling for Belichick's or McDaniel's or Pees' head, I'm trying to recognize what some people would like to ignore. Yeah, we have the best coach in the league and have won more playoff games in the last 3 years, but what's to show for it? 3 disappointing losses.

    Those losses had some unfortunate events but our coaching put the team in that position - come on, 6 points through 3 quarters in Denver? Giving up 4 TD's in one half? 7 points through 3 quarters in a SB? Giving up backbreaking scores in the closing minutes? Couldn't we have done a little better?

    The last few years we've seen teams that historically struggled in the playoffs finally get the job done, and went on a 4-game playoff run to do it. And the sad part is that none of those teams won a playoff game in the other 2 years, they simply caught fire at the right time.

    I just don't want to be back here next year hearing "we've gone 7-4 in the playoffs the last 4 years" and "we'll be in the hunt for years" - I don't want to see this team turn into the Yankees.
     
  11. Fencer

    Fencer Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    The reason isn't losing Weis and Crennel. Not mainly.

    The reason is that because of the Pats' great success, and also because of Pat copycat coaching schemes elsewhere in the league, the Pats have been greatly studied.

    It's not so much that BB is doing worse. It's that BB's opponents are better prepared to contend with him.

    Weis had some games that seemed horrifically stubborn just like McDaniels has. The defense used to bend a lot just like it does now. I'll confess to not knowing what the passed-up FG try was all about, but otherwise I don't see a significant change at the Pats' end of things.
     
  12. sieglo

    sieglo In the Starting Line-Up

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    I don't think he's complaining about BB. I think he's questioning the quality of BB's supporting cast.
     
  13. neuronet

    neuronet In the Starting Line-Up

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    Dude, you are so spoiled. What many a fan would give for our "series" of disappointing losses in the last 7 years.
     
  14. JoePats

    JoePats In the Starting Line-Up

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    This is a ridiculous thread.

    How exactly did he get outcoached in Denver in the 2005 playoffs by the way? We outgained them about 420-280 but had 5 turnovers.
     
  15. richpats

    richpats Banned

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    Christ, we just had the biggest choke in NFL history and last year we suffered the biggest choke in a conference championship game - and you're telling me the coaching staff is keeping this team focused?!

    Do you know what other fans are doing right now? They are laughing at us. We have become a punchline. They never have to say that they're team went 18-0 and lost in the SB, or blew an 18-point lead in a title game, IN CONSECUTIVE YEARS, no less. Yeah, fans everywhere are lining up to have that.

    The only way that these losses can be put in perspective is if there is some sort of light at the end of the tunnel, and if our coaching staff doesn't improve, there won't be any light for us fans.
     
  16. richpats

    richpats Banned

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    Umm, before our rash of turnovers we had all of 3 points. THREE. That's through 28 minutes of football. And the playcalling in the red zone while down 10-6 was horrible. The decision to "fake" a blocked punt, leaving Troy little time to judge the punt was horrible.
     
  17. MassPats38

    MassPats38 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The funny thing about coaching is fans tend to look at plays that turn out well and call it genius and call the ones that don't turn out well foolish decisions. Hindsight is always 20/20. Watch the Denver game again and remind yourself how many drives were ended by turnovers and how many momentum swings were checked by putting the ball on the turf. That was easily one of the hardest games to watch for me in the last 15 years because the players so underperformed when it counted. Coaching? Name the motivational tool you would employ to eliminate a teams untimely and unpredictable turnover problem, put your theory in a book, then accept all the NFL head coaching positions thrown your way.

    And fans laugh at the Pats' losses because of envy. The Pats are not universally hated because they are lousy, it is because they are always in the hunt for the Lombardi. No team can say they have been in such a position as frequently over the last decade, and no team has been as successful. You cannot make the Colts argument of not performing well in big games given the fact this team has won 3 titles, and if you can say you would be mentioning this argument if Manning throws a pick or if Manning goes down for the sack, effectively handing the Pats the title, then fire away at the declining Patriots.
     
  18. MoLewisrocks

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    richpats, it's one of the clear cut signs of delusion when you have to start quoting yourself in a thread you start because you're the only person who thinks your not an idiot.

    In all three losses you cite, players failed to execute. Uncharacteristically once, unexpectedly most recently and because they were undermanned and worn out in between. There is nothing RAC or Charlie could do to mitigate those circumstances, and examples underscoring that literally abound in their own post Patriots careers.

    There is nothing Charlie could have done on Sunday to make a pro bowl studded line man up and pick up or hold their blocks. Although it probably would have been worth the price of admission to have access to the sideline audio just to listen to the explative laden ****storm he would have been unleashing on them as he watched them nearly get a kid he loves like a son killed.

    BTW the decision on the punt in Denver was either made by the same ST coach we've had throughout the run or the guy who makes all the strategic decisions in game like going for it on 4th and 13 rather than attempting a 49 yard FG in a dome.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2008
  19. richpats

    richpats Banned

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    I feel like I'm the only one that sees a need for improvement with this staff. It's time to stop looking back on the glory days when we never lost a playoff game and accept what has happened recently.

    The "if" game can be played both ways - "if" our coaching decisions were a little better throughout the course of the game, would the Giants be in position to win the game in the final minutes?
     
  20. SVN

    SVN Hall of Fame Poster

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    i think its a little hyperbole but i feel we need to draft better now. Ever since we got asante,wilson and others in one draft we didnt hit that much since other than the first rounders.
    Take last yrs draft, other than merriweather how many of the 6th and 7th rounders we had coming up big. I know it is rare but our team used to be good at that.
    I hope this draft has some good news . Also over the yrs BB is coaching the same defense. The players are good but are old , whatever fiery speech they may give. Whenever i see the steelers defense flying around i feel , we dont we have such fast guys.
    We need to grow younger on defense and people like chad jackson etc need to start stepping up next season to prove their value.
     
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