realistic FA class for pats

[NewFeep]

Snelling or John Kuhn would be fantastic additions. Both are the type of RB/FB whom would mesh well with BJGE and Woodhead...

Either Cliff Avril or Kamerion Wimbley would significantly upgrade the pass rush...

If they're looking to add another receiver, then Lance Moore would be a nice addition...

Harvey Dahl seems likely to re-sign with Atlanta, but he's the type of interior lineman the Pats should be targeting...

I like the way you think!

 

[furley]

As I wrote in the other thread, two defensive players on my radar that might pique Belichick's interest are free agents Tim Crowder and Chase Blackburn.

 

[the wrothbroughterer]

What is foolish is thinking that adding someone like Champ Bailey or Asomugha is going to magically help the defense. You seem to overlook that the real issues are at the D-line and OLB postion.

Well, the first part of my post was I would like to sign Haloti Ngata but that's fine. If you don't think that Bailey of Asomugha can't help us on defense then you're clearly smoking wayyy cheaper stuff than I am. They're just better players than Butler, Arrington, and Bodden. When you replace some players with better players you tend to get better, unless I'm missing something.

Please show me where the "average height for an NFL WR is 6'1." Seriously. Please provide a link because I believe that is you spewing BS. In fact, if you go an look, the top 5 receivers this year were all 6'0 and under...

This was Tate's rookie season for all intents and purposes. He's still learning. Acting as if he's a 4th or 5th year man who still hasn't figured it out shows that you really have a serious lack of understanding.

Also, if you think that Sims-Walker is going to be cheap, your smoking some cheap stuff. The Pats have a very good to excellent corps of receivers. They need help on the O-line and D-line. Yet, you'd have them blow money on positions that are their strengths.. That makes no sense at all.

I got the average height from a FootballOutsiders article I read earlier in the year. I can't find it and don't have the patience to look for it so I'll cede that to you. However, that still doesn't mean you're right about us having enough height at WR. I never said talent was a problem at WR, only the groups ability to go up and catch it over others. If you're happy with our tallest WR being a hair over 6'0", that's your prerogative. I'd like to have at least one WR being taller than our oppositions DBs.

Most of posts in the Draft Talk forum have been focused on getting defensive front seven players and offensive linemen in the draft. The fact of the matter is there aren't a whole bunch of good FA OL and DL coming out. Can you really be excited about Richie Incognito? I want Mankins back but beyond him there aren't many OL that grab your attention. I'd rather take an OL or 2 in the draft and spend the available cap space on someone who can make a difference or give us something on the field we don't have.

I want Brandon Tate to do well too but outside of a few flashes in the pan, his skills at WR left a lot to be desired. He has great speed but drops way to many easy passes, runs sloppy routes, and he doesn't have great size. Adding a WR doesn't close the book on him by any means because he has great value as a return man but I'm not interested in bringing guys along at this point. We have maybe 3 or 4 years of contending teams left before we fall off the map for a while and I want to win. Waiting around for some guys to get their **** together isn't going to do it.

 

[DaBruinz]

I want Brandon Tate to do well too but outside of a few flashes in the pan, his skills at WR left a lot to be desired. He has great speed but drops way to many easy passes, runs sloppy routes, and he doesn't have great size. Adding a WR doesn't close the book on him by any means because he has great value as a return man but I'm not interested in bringing guys along at this point. We have maybe 3 or 4 years of contending teams left before we fall off the map for a while and I want to win. Waiting around for some guys to get their **** together isn't going to do it.

This is so much horse manure that I don't know where to start. Drops can be overcome by working with the jugs machine in the off-season.. As was proven by David Givens. Your claims about his route running are BS as is your claim about his size. 6 of the top 10 and the top 5 receivers were ALL 6' or less. This idea that you have to be 6'1 or taller to be a great receiver is just BS. And the proof is in the stats. Just go look them up.

Adding a WR moves everyone down and takes away snaps from the younger guys. Guys that need to develop to prevent this team from "falling off the map" as you say. But, even that idea of yours is BS. This team isn't just going to magically fall to 1-15 in 3-4 years because you say so.

OH.. One last thing. Based on % of Targets, Welker and Tate were nearly identical in number of drops.. I don't see you saying that Welker is a waste or complaining about that.. And Welker dropped many more "easy" catches than Tate did this year. And no. I'm not saying that Tate is in Welker's class. I'm saying that you need to be aware that Tate isn't nearly as bad as you make him out to be.

 

[MaineMan]

Just my take

Well, granting that the Colts' O-line generally sucked donkey snot to the extent that no RB was going to look all that good this season, Addai was still a decently productive runner and their best back when healthy. He showed he can still run with power and make a second cut to break one for good yardage occasionally.

Brown rarely even got deep into the LB level and is looking like a bust as a former first-rounder. UDFA/JAG Javarris James (who was on the Pats P/S for awhile) looked nearly as good as Brown. I don't think Hart was ever intended to be a feature back for them, but more of a change-of-pace guy.

Assuming he regains full health in the off-season, Addai is still their #1 RB by a mile.

 

[MaineMan]

This is so much horse manure that I don't know where to start. Drops can be overcome by working with the jugs machine in the off-season.. As was proven by David Givens. Your claims about his route running are BS as is your claim about his size. 6 of the top 10 and the top 5 receivers were ALL 6' or less. This idea that you have to be 6'1 or taller to be a great receiver is just BS. And the proof is in the stats. Just go look them up.

Adding a WR moves everyone down and takes away snaps from the younger guys. Guys that need to develop to prevent this team from "falling off the map" as you say. But, even that idea of yours is BS. This team isn't just going to magically fall to 1-15 in 3-4 years because you say so.

OH.. One last thing. Based on % of Targets, Welker and Tate were nearly identical in number of drops.. I don't see you saying that Welker is a waste or complaining about that.. And Welker dropped many more "easy" catches than Tate did this year. And no. I'm not saying that Tate is in Welker's class. I'm saying that you need to be aware that Tate isn't nearly as bad as you make him out to be.

Tate was effectively a rookie this season. His KR stats were about the same as Hester's rookie KR stats. Tate contributed more at WR than Hester did his first year playing WR. IOW, the Bears probably should have given up on Hester right away.

 

[MaineMan]

Well, the first part of my post was I would like to sign Haloti Ngata but that's fine. If you don't think that Bailey of Asomugha can't help us on defense then you're clearly smoking wayyy cheaper stuff than I am. They're just better players than Butler, Arrington, and Bodden. When you replace some players with better players you tend to get better, unless I'm missing something.



I got the average height from a FootballOutsiders article I read earlier in the year. I can't find it and don't have the patience to look for it so I'll cede that to you. However, that still doesn't mean you're right about us having enough height at WR. I never said talent was a problem at WR, only the groups ability to go up and catch it over others. If you're happy with our tallest WR being a hair over 6'0", that's your prerogative. I'd like to have at least one WR being taller than our oppositions DBs.

Most of posts in the Draft Talk forum have been focused on getting defensive front seven players and offensive linemen in the draft. The fact of the matter is there aren't a whole bunch of good FA OL and DL coming out. Can you really be excited about Richie Incognito? I want Mankins back but beyond him there aren't many OL that grab your attention. I'd rather take an OL or 2 in the draft and spend the available cap space on someone who can make a difference or give us something on the field we don't have.

I want Brandon Tate to do well too but outside of a few flashes in the pan, his skills at WR left a lot to be desired. He has great speed but drops way to many easy passes, runs sloppy routes, and he doesn't have great size. Adding a WR doesn't close the book on him by any means because he has great value as a return man but I'm not interested in bringing guys along at this point. We have maybe 3 or 4 years of contending teams left before we fall off the map for a while and I want to win. Waiting around for some guys to get their **** together isn't going to do it.

You're way underestimating Bodden and way overestimating Asomugha and Bailey.

Arrington has been fine as a reserve RCB, as long as he has help over the top most of the time. though I have my doubts that he'd perform as well subbing in on the left side. His coverage at RCB is not elite, but his generally superior tackling significantly restricts YAC. And he's okay as a slot guy. He plays the run about as well as a SS.

Wilhite and Butler are just bodies occupying the #4/#5 CB spots at this point. We really don't need to spend much at all to upgrade those two spots and maybe even come up with a better reserve LCB.

WRT WR height - aside from Jordy Nelson, the Packers' WRs average 6'0". What makes their passing attack difficult to defend is that all their six-footers can work all the target zones equally well - short/intermediate/deep, sideline/between-the-numbers. Most of our guys, this season, excel between the numbers in short/intermediate zones but don't do very much outside those areas. Branch works the sidelines well, but not very often deep. Tate showed some potential to get deep, but also showed rookie flaws - there's still upside there, though.

The point being that our passing attack needs to be able to spread out more, height or no height. Tate and Price may yet be able to help with that. We don't necessarily need to bring in a new guy.

 

[mcgraw_wv]

Call me crazy, but I want Ricky Williams, and all Draft spent on Defensive, and O-line.

I want a RB that can deliver the hit and wear down a defense. The Defense doesn't wear down from repeating woodhead runs or Green-Ellis runs... We need to put teams away with tough runs int he 4th for first downs. I think Williams is ready for a fair contract to play for a contender.

 

[DaBruinz]

Call me crazy, but I want Ricky Williams, and all Draft spent on Defensive, and O-line.

I want a RB that can deliver the hit and wear down a defense. The Defense doesn't wear down from repeating woodhead runs or Green-Ellis runs... We need to put teams away with tough runs int he 4th for first downs. I think Williams is ready for a fair contract to play for a contender.

You mean the Ricky Williams who turns 34 in May and has over 2300 carries in his career?? That Ricky Williams???

Not sure why you think that Williams, at this point in his career, has more power than BJGE.

 

[JackBauer]

And finally bring in Champ Bailey if at all possible. Relegate Leigh Bodden to slot and nickel duty and let Bailey play opposite of Devin McCourty. I don't know what his thoughts about New England and the Patriots are but I would guess there is a snowball's chance in hell that he stays in that abyss Denver turned into. If his demands lie anywhere near reasonable, bust ass and bring him here.

You clearly did not watch many Broncos games this season. Bodden is a better cornerback than Bailey at this point in their careers. Why else do you think he's trying to transition to safety?

 

[MaineMan]

You mean the Ricky Williams who turns 34 in May and has over 2300 carries in his career?? That Ricky Williams???

Not sure why you think that Williams, at this point in his career, has more power than BJGE.

Buh, buh, buh.... Ricky Williams' attitude would be such a perfect fit in the Pats locker room!
[/sarcasm]

 

[the wrothbroughterer]

This is so much horse manure that I don't know where to start. Drops can be overcome by working with the jugs machine in the off-season.. As was proven by David Givens. Your claims about his route running are BS as is your claim about his size. 6 of the top 10 and the top 5 receivers were ALL 6' or less. This idea that you have to be 6'1 or taller to be a great receiver is just BS. And the proof is in the stats. Just go look them up.

************ I never said you had to be tall to be a good receiver. The point I was making is that adding Sims-Walker gives us a dimension that we don't presently have in our WR corps. You inferred that height makes receiver's good all on your own because I was critical of Brandon Tate, God forbid anybody be critical of a Patriot.

FYI, Football Outsiders has the top 10 WRs in 2010 as Mike Wallace(6'1"), Brandon Lloyd(6'0"), Greg Jennings(5'11"), Roddy White(6'1"), Andre Johnson(6'3"), Hakeem Nicks(6'3"), Calvin Johnson(6'5"), Dwayne Bowe(6'2"), Jeremy Maclin(6'0"), and Kenny Brit(6'3"). I'm no mathematician but by my count 3 of the 10 there are 6'0" or under.

Adding a WR moves everyone down and takes away snaps from the younger guys. Guys that need to develop to prevent this team from "falling off the map" as you say. But, even that idea of yours is BS. This team isn't just going to magically fall to 1-15 in 3-4 years because you say so.

Yes that is an unfortunate consequence of getting aggressive and finding players who can make an immediate impact to your team now as opposed to potentially down the road. But denying yourself available talent that is readily available and can improve your team because you're holding out hope for specific players is foolish and doesn't make you a better football team. Ever heard the saying that complacency kills?

OH.. One last thing. Based on % of Targets, Welker and Tate were nearly identical in number of drops.. I don't see you saying that Welker is a waste or complaining about that.. And Welker dropped many more "easy" catches than Tate did this year. And no. I'm not saying that Tate is in Welker's class. I'm saying that you need to be aware that Tate isn't nearly as bad as you make him out to be.

Welker also had 3 or 4 against Buffalo, which is more indicative of a poor game skewing his season total than him being a poor player. Take out that outlier and you're argument gets a little thin.

 

[DW Toys]

This is so much horse manure that I don't know where to start. Drops can be overcome by working with the jugs machine in the off-season.. As was proven by David Givens. Your claims about his route running are BS as is your claim about his size. 6 of the top 10 and the top 5 receivers were ALL 6' or less. This idea that you have to be 6'1 or taller to be a great receiver is just BS. And the proof is in the stats. Just go look them up.

Adding a WR moves everyone down and takes away snaps from the younger guys. Guys that need to develop to prevent this team from "falling off the map" as you say. But, even that idea of yours is BS. This team isn't just going to magically fall to 1-15 in 3-4 years because you say so.

OH.. One last thing. Based on % of Targets, Welker and Tate were nearly identical in number of drops.. I don't see you saying that Welker is a waste or complaining about that.. And Welker dropped many more "easy" catches than Tate did this year. And no. I'm not saying that Tate is in Welker's class. I'm saying that you need to be aware that Tate isn't nearly as bad as you make him out to be.

I hope this was an older thread. I hope you watched the Jets Playoff game. Nuff said. If you think Tate is the answer and the next Jerry Rice or even David Givens, good luck cousin. The smurfs were taken out and Tate was ignored...Why? I am sure TB had his reasons.

If I hear the phrase "quick twitch" anymore, I will go crazy. That worked out really well for our DB roster in the past and now the only WR we have at 6' doesn't play.

Say...your not going to "Maroney" Tate are you? And yes, Tate is as bad as described here for a #2 WR. Perhaps not bad for a #5 WR.

DW Toys

 

[patsboy44]

Kiawanuka (after Neck examine), C. Bailey (definite), L. Washington (if we trade Welker)

I think Bailey and Kiawanuka would fit well in their system. I'm concerned with Washington though.

 

[MaineMan]

I hope this was an older thread. I hope you watched the Jets Playoff game. Nuff said. If you think Tate is the answer and the next Jerry Rice or even David Givens, good luck cousin. The smurfs were taken out and Tate was ignored...Why? I am sure TB had his reasons.

If I hear the phrase "quick twitch" anymore, I will go crazy. That worked out really well for our DB roster in the past and now the only WR we have at 6' doesn't play.

Say...your not going to "Maroney" Tate are you? And yes, Tate is as bad as described here for a #2 WR. Perhaps not bad for a #5 WR.

DW Toys

I couldn't tell you if "Tate is the answer" because I don't even know what the question is. I can say that this was effectively Tate's first year (after nearly two years out of football). This is how he stacks up against other 2010 first year WRs:

24 receptions - tied for 11th
432 yds - 7th
18.0 YPC - 2nd among guys with 20+ catches
65 longest (TD) - 3rd
3 TDs - tied for 4th
8 20+ - tied for 2nd
4 40+ - 1st

The four 40+ yard receptions were tied for 10th among all WRs in 2010. The only guys who had more also had 2-3 times as many catches.

So, I'm thinking I'd kinda like to see what he does his second year before I toss him on the scrap heap.

 

[jsull87]

I couldn't tell you if "Tate is the answer" because I don't even know what the question is. I can say that this was effectively Tate's first year (after nearly two years out of football). This is how he stacks up against other 2010 first year WRs:

24 receptions - tied for 11th
432 yds - 7th
18.0 YPC - 2nd among guys with 20+ catches
65 longest (TD) - 3rd
3 TDs - tied for 4th
8 20+ - tied for 2nd
4 40+ - 1st

The four 40+ yard receptions were tied for 10th among all WRs in 2010. The only guys who had more also had 2-3 times as many catches.

So, I'm thinking I'd kinda like to see what he does his second year before I toss him on the scrap heap.

I put tate in the early season GRONK category too. When i watched tape he was open alot of times. His job was to go deep and thats what he did... he did drop a ball or 2 and that made brady turn a bit more to his safety blanket welker.

It's always good to have stats to show that tate for his 1st year actually hasn't done too bad at all.

 

[Michigan Dave]

OLB

Mathias Kiwanuka,
LaMarr Woodley, (maybe out of the pats price rang but wort the money )
Matt Roth,
Kamerion Wimbley,

I would do anything to get LaMarr here. But, unless the negotiations with the Steelers go really, really cold...it ain't happenin'. I know LaMarr and he loves being a Steeler (he grew up a Steeler fan). Sometimes I dream of LaMarr in that blue and silver coming around the edge, though. Open the checkbook and tempt him.

CB

Champ Bailey,
Carlos Rogers,
Fabian Washington,
Drayton Florence,[/QUOTE]

I don't see corner as a position of great need. I value Bodden quite a bit and think with McCourty and Bodden, we've got a fantastic 1-2 punch there. Arrington/Butler would be a capable nickel. If we could make the numbers work, a Bailey or Washington would be nice.

 

[Mike the Brit]

OLB

I would do anything to get LaMarr here. But, unless the negotiations with the Steelers go really, really cold...it ain't happenin'. I know LaMarr and he loves being a Steeler (he grew up a Steeler fan). Sometimes I dream of LaMarr in that blue and silver coming around the edge, though. Open the checkbook and tempt him.

Well, maybe he'll sign so he can finish beating up Zoltan Mesko:

“LaMarr was visiting when we were in senior year, and Zoltan threw a crutch to him when he wasn’t looking. It hit him in the side of the face, and LaMarr got mad; Zoltan ran away from him.

“Four months later, we’re walking back from a workout in the morning, and this SUV pulls in front of us. LaMarr gets out and he says to Zoltan, ‘I remember what you did,’ and started chasing him.

“Meanwhile, he forgot to put his car in park, and it started rolling and almost hit the hockey rink. He jumps in the car to stop it, and Zoltan kept running. That was pretty funny.’’


Tale of punter Mesko unlike any in NFL - The Boston Globe

 

[Keyser Söze]

I want Champ here, get er done BB.

 

[WesWelker83]

As I wrote in the other thread, two defensive players on my radar that might pique Belichick's interest are free agents Tim Crowder and Chase Blackburn.

Chase Blackburn absolutely sucks. He was awful as a starter in NY and was quickly replaced after his one year starting in 08.

Crowder is interesting and has been a productive player in the league. He was good at Texas as well. This would all depend on cost and fit. I still think hes better in a 4-3 at DE.