RB's in the draft

[Seneschal2]

It doesn't do any good to address the RB position if the O-line isn't addressed.

There are too many questions for the O-line.

LT - Is it Vollmer or Light?
LG -Is Mankins back and a happy camper?
C - Koppen has been getting manhandled this year and has numerous mental mistakes
RG - Neal is just about toast.
RT - Is Kaczur healthy? Is this Vollmer's full time position? Has Maneri progressed enough to take it over and allow Vollmer to play the left side..

Denver proved for years that a good to great O-line trumps a great RB.

True, a solid O-line is necessary for a productive running and passing game. However, it's been proven that excellent O-lines aren't necessarily made up of first round draft picks. With that said, Mankins (32), Light (48), Vollmer (58), were all selected by the end of round two, while Koppen was a 5th rounder and Neal was undrafted. Of course BB could spend one of the firsts on the O-line, or he could wait until the Carolina pick to address the obvious need. I'm certainly curious if there's a roster player-in-waiting who will be ready to step in and start next season, as this will greatly impact the draft.

As far as the RB position is concerned -- I would classify it as a priority need -- and fill it with Ingram. However, as much as I believe he fits the BB mold at the position to a tee, I'd prefer to spend 1a on defense, hoping he slides within range of a tradeup from 1b, keeping in mind of the Graham tradeup from #32 to #21 (where Maroney was also selected). Yes, there are other RB options (there always are) -- but he's a special talent who's slower 4o time may dictate a slide.

I don't like to assign positional needs to specific draft slots due to the numerous scenarios one can create (see above), but there is a way to draft a defensive player, Ingram, and an offensive lineman with the first three picks.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I do agree with you to a point....However, I think by having a clock eater like Ingram that would help the defense just as much as bringing in stud D player by keeping the defense off the field....The browns aren't the best D in the league but their offense ate up so much clock by running the ball that their D didn't have to be perfect....It goes both ways...

IMO it all comes down to impact, if you were to think of a player as a rock you're throwing into a pond with the intention of getting the most ripples, which player gives you the most ripples for your money/draft pick?

A stud OLB or DE will change the defense, it would give us a significant upgrade, how much of an upgrade would Ingram be? I'm a big fan of his but given our other needs it seems damn foolish to spend an early pick on a RB, I'd MUCH rather take Quinn, Dareus, or Nick Fairly than Ingram. I think we can get servicable backs in the later rounds.

This is the "opportunity cost" mentioned in that draft pick formula discussed recently.

 

[jsull87]

IMO it all comes down to impact, if you were to think of a player as a rock you're throwing into a pond with the intention of getting the most ripples, which player gives you the most ripples for your money/draft pick?

A stud OLB or DE will change the defense, it would give us a significant upgrade, how much of an upgrade would Ingram be? I'm a big fan of his but given our other needs it seems damn foolish to spend an early pick on a RB, I'd MUCH rather take Quinn, Dareus, or Nick Fairly than Ingram. I think we can get serviceable backs in the later rounds.

This is the "opportunity cost" mentioned in that draft pick formula discussed recently.

yeah but unfortunately i don't really think any of those players excluding ingram will fall to our raiders pick with the way they are playing at the moment

 

[Snake Eyes]

yeah but unfortunately i don't really think any of those players excluding ingram will fall to our raiders pick with the way they are playing at the moment

While the might be true I think the idea of "impact" would generally support the best DE we could get at that point over the best RB available. RBs are simply a dime a dozen, and I'd much rather beef up the O-line with a low round pick than a RB.

 

[jsull87]

While the might be true I think the idea of "impact" would generally support the best DE we could get at that point over the best RB available. RBs are simply a dime a dozen, and I'd much rather beef up the O-line with a low round pick than a RB.

i agree with what your saying if the best player available is a DE. But no point in picking one if there's no value there. i don't agree or disagree with you on the no RB... on one hand if it turns into AP/CJ e.t.c then well worth it but if it turns into maroney... what a waste. I just think this offense needs to take some pressure of brady somehow and maybe a running back is that solution

 

[Snake Eyes]

i agree with what your saying if the best player available is a DE. But no point in picking one if there's no value there. i don't agree or disagree with you on the no RB... on one hand if it turns into AP/CJ e.t.c then well worth it but if it turns into maroney... what a waste. I just think this offense needs to take some pressure of brady somehow and maybe a running back is that solution

It doesn't matter if the best players is a DE, what matters is who the best player is for the Patriots, suppose a RB available represents a 5% upgrade from what we have now (Law Firm actually outran AP when we played the Vikings) but the DE is a 30% upgrade from what we have now, even if the RB is a better RB than the DE is compared to other DEs, the DE will have a bigger impact.

All that being said, there is nothing to prevent us from trading up to grab stud players.

 

[Off The Grid]

You post as if the 2011 need for a running abck is a surprise to anyone. When you go into the season with zero running backs signed for 2011, everyone knows that there is a need at running back.

Yes, we need at least two additions at running back, even after we tender both Green-Ellis and Woodhead at $1.8M each.

Excellent. There's no reason why we can't rapidly accumulate a nice, deep stable of low cost Running Backs, perhaps as many as 6, if the rosters jump up to 56 - 60 with the next CBA: 2 HalfBacks, 2 TailBacks, and 2 FullBacks.

There're usually a nice set of them available in any given draft: DOZENS of high quality Backs have been drafted in the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th Rounds and been picked up as Free Agents ~ like BOTH Danny WoodHead and Hyphen Boy.

The team obviously didn't see anything in the late 2010 draft, free agency or even in trades. That is somewhat surprsiing to me.

And to me:

6th TB Deji Karim
6th FB Charlie Scott
FA HB Joique Bell

We should've yoinked all three of those guys.

 

[Off The Grid]

It doesn't do any good to address the RB position if the O-line isn't addressed.

Denver proved for years that a good to great O-line trumps a great RB.

Couldn't've put it better, myself: It All Starts In The Trenches.

That's why it's shrewd to seize as many Alpha Grizzlies in the early rounds as possible...and then fill in with High Upside/Low Cost Backs on Day 3...and later:

Arian Foster, baby: UnDrafted FREAK.

 

[rookBoston]

Demarco Murray has a pretty bad injury history in college. He has even hurt himself enough to need stitches in warmups.

You mean Demarco "crable chicken legs" Murray? I watched his YouTube highlights, and even before knowing he had an injury history I wondered whether he wasn't built a bit too fragile to be a workhorse RB in the NFL. Myself, I wouldn't touch him before the 4th round. I'll take a bowling ball RB any day before I take a long and lanky strider.

I'd fight for either Mikel Leshoure or Shane Vereen before I'd even look in Murray's direction. (or both of them! Why else do we have all those picks?)

 

[WelshPat]

Right, so for those that are wanting to beef up the Oline, are you really saying that you want to draft a guard or a center in the middle of round 1? Because if your drafting a center that high, your team better be stacked. This draft is a weak year for 1st round talent Tackles.

It works both ways. A great back can make an O-line look really good. A great O-line can make average backs look really good. Now, with the Patriots they have a great QB so protecting him is important. But alot of this reminds me of when they drafted Mayo and a lot of people wanted to draft Brandon Albert. Sometimes i think fans take the saying "Games are won in the trenches" too far, and just want to draft lineman.

Here's an example. Chicago Bears, they need a LT and a RB. The choice is Chris Williams or Mendenhall. They end up picking Williams, who is an average LT, always hurt, and picking Matt Forte later who had a nice first season but has fallen off.

The logic they used was beef up the O-line first, and pick a back later. Look where it got them, 2 average players. Mendenhall? He's very good.

 

[Off The Grid]

(or both of them! Why else do we have all those picks?)

NICELY put, sir.

 

[Off The Grid]

Right, so for those that are wanting to beef up the Oline, are you really saying that you want to draft a guard or a center in the middle of round 1?

Nobody said that.

We're simply arguing ~ or at least I am ~ that Grizzlies should be a CLEAR priority over Running Backs.

No way in HELL would I touch any O Line Grizzly before the late Second Round, THIS year.

And probably not even THEN.

But would I'ave scooped up OG Mike Iupati AND C Marquis de Pouncey with #17 + #18 LAST year??

HELL, yeah. :rocker:

It works both ways.

A great back can make an O-line look really good.

Not when it counts, my friend.

Not when it counts.

Barry Sanders In The PlayOffs: EXPOSED.

Sometimes i think fans take the saying "Games are won in the trenches" too far, and just want to draft lineman.

Here's an example. Chicago Bears, they need a LT and a RB. The choice is Chris Williams or Mendenhall. They end up picking Williams, who is an average LT, always hurt, and picking Matt Forte later who had a nice first season but has fallen off.

The logic they used was beef up the O-line first, and pick a back later. Look where it got them, 2 average players. Mendenhall? He's very good.

That's pretty ~ I'll say "selective" ~ to focus on Chris Williams, one of the biggest Busts of that entire Draft.

That same year, Jake Long, Ryan Clady, Jeff Otah, and Duane Brown were all selected in the 1st Round.

Meanwhile, Jamaal Charles and Steve Slaton both went in the 3rd Round.

Not to mention: Hyphen Boy AND a guy name Danny WoodHead went UFA, that year.

 

[MustaphaM0nd]

Nobody said that.

We're simply arguing ~ or at least I am ~ that Grizzlies should be a CLEAR priority over Running Backs.

No way in HELL would I touch any O Line Grizzly before the late Second Round, THIS year.

And probably not even THEN.

But would I'ave scooped up OG Mike Iupati AND C Marquis de Pouncey with #17 + #18 LAST year??

HELL, yeah. :rocker:




Not when it counts, my friend.

Not when it counts.

Barry Sanders In The PlayOffs: EXPOSED.



That's pretty ~ I'll say "selective" ~ to focus on Chris Williams, one of the biggest Busts of that entire Draft.

That same year, Jake Long, Ryan Clady, Jeff Otah, and Duane Brown were all selected in the 1st Round.

Meanwhile, Jamaal Charles and Steve Slaton both went in the 3rd Round.

Not to mention: Hyphen Boy AND a guy name Danny WoodHead went UFA, that year.

Darren McFadden
Rashard Mendenhall
Felix Jones
Chris Johnson

Jake Long
Ryan Clady
Branden Albert
Gosder Cherilus
Chris Williams
Jeff Otah
Sam Baker
Duane Brown

More busts in the second group.

 

[Off The Grid]

Darren McFadden
Rashard Mendenhall
Felix Jones
Chris Johnson

Jake Long
Ryan Clady
Branden Albert
Gosder Cherilus
Chris Williams
Jeff Otah
Sam Baker
Duane Brown

More busts in the second group.

Respectfully submitted, Bro, but you are DEAD wrong.

8 of 8 have been ~ and I believe still are ~ STARTERS, most of them their first year, and ALL of them, their second.

Meanwhile, until this year, only TWO of YOUR 4 were Starters.

WHOOPS. :bricks:

My point was not to nitpick a single draft to make a point, but to illustrate how fundamentally flawed doing so is.

 

[serifyn]

The Way i see it, the patriots either need to improve their passing game or their running game significantly, and as it stands, they can do either with a couple pickups and other slight tweaks to the roster.

The Run - The emergence of an effective running game has been a pleasant surprised, and the rookie tight ends are the key, Gronkowski and alge crumpler have been tremendous as a blocker and neal, Connelly and Vollmer have all shown some skill at pulling and run blocking as well, mankins, if he is somehow resigned has a reputation as a furious blocker, imo the only thing missing is a featured runningback, the patriots will be in position to pick or trade up for mark Ingram, who looks like he will be a terrific back in the nfl, the game is shifting into more of a passing game, and that means more teams will be drafting defensive players who are good at coverage and pass rushing rather than players who may be more specialized against the run.

The Pass - The Patriots are a differant team without Randy Moss, Welkers production has taken a dive and while the patriots have a wide variety of skilled recievers, none of them can create separation or draw coverage like moss used to be. the patriots traded moss because they figured he would evenually be exposed as no longer a threat and thus be in the same position they are in now without a draft pick. The field is now clogged with coverage, making it extremely difficult for tom brady to make a safe downfield pass. Unless Tate, Price or Hernandez develop into a threat before the end of the season this must be remedied. It is highly unlikely that the patriots would be able to draft A.J Green, and Julio Jones and Jonathan Baldwin might have the speed or the hands to be the guy you are looking for. This means the patriots would need to find someone in free agency.


Two differant pathes for the offense and i think while the patriots will try to improve both, it makes more sense to go hard after one with a draft pick, free agency or a trade.

 

[WelshPat]

Nobody said that.

We're simply arguing ~ or at least I am ~ that Grizzlies should be a CLEAR priority over Running Backs.

No way in HELL would I touch any O Line Grizzly before the late Second Round, THIS year.

And probably not even THEN.

But would I'ave scooped up OG Mike Iupati AND C Marquis de Pouncey with #17 + #18 LAST year??

HELL, yeah. :rocker:




Not when it counts, my friend.

Not when it counts.

Barry Sanders In The PlayOffs: EXPOSED.



That's pretty ~ I'll say "selective" ~ to focus on Chris Williams, one of the biggest Busts of that entire Draft.

That same year, Jake Long, Ryan Clady, Jeff Otah, and Duane Brown were all selected in the 1st Round.

Meanwhile, Jamaal Charles and Steve Slaton both went in the 3rd Round.

Not to mention: Hyphen Boy AND a guy name Danny WoodHead went UFA, that year.

You say my Chris Williams example is selective yet you give me one example of Barry Sanders. Your being selective too, to make your point, just like i am.

So, you would have taken Iupati and Pouncey back to back. See, I wouldn't. I'm not saying there bad players. But guard and center with 2 first round picks? No thanks. Just like I hated San Frans picks of guard and Right Tackle this past year. IMO, unless your the champions of the world or my team is stacked, then I would stay away from those guys in the first round.

Jeff Otah is a Right Tackle, pass. Brown was a huge reach and isn't that good. Pass. Looking back, was long a great pick over Ryan? Now, Long is a great player, but there back with Pennington all ready.

We have a great O-Line coach, probably the best. I personally feel that our O-line has played pretty well. Our RBs on the other hand, I don't love. Woodhead is a 3rd down back. BJGE is not the answer as a main back, IMO.

 

[Peachhead]

Last night I got my first look at Nevada RB Vai Taua. Me like! He gets the ball and bursts through the LOS. He's good sized (5'11". 220#) and runs with power. None of the skittering behind the line or constantly trying to break it outside like Maroney.

 

[Off The Grid]

You say my Chris Williams example is selective yet you give me one example of Barry Sanders. Your being selective too, to make your point, just like i am.

So, you would have taken Iupati and Pouncey back to back. See, I wouldn't. I'm not saying there bad players. But guard and center with 2 first round picks? No thanks. Just like I hated San Frans picks of guard and Right Tackle this past year. IMO, unless your the champions of the world or my team is stacked, then I would stay away from those guys in the first round.

Jeff Otah is a Right Tackle, pass. Brown was a huge reach and isn't that good. Pass. Looking back, was long a great pick over Ryan? Now, Long is a great player, but there back with Pennington all ready.

We have a great O-Line coach, probably the best. I personally feel that our O-line has played pretty well. Our RBs on the other hand, I don't love. Woodhead is a 3rd down back. BJGE is not the answer as a main back, IMO.

You'll get no argument from ME about Hyphen Boy.

An interesting philosophical gap between you and I ~ and between me and everyone who doesn't want to spend heavily on Grizzlies ~ is that you see what Dante has done with "Value" picks, and think we should continue in that manner, which is certainly a valid point of view.

My position is that if Dante can take fringe players and turn them into solid contributors...imagine what he could do with 5 STUDS??

The Argument that our O Line "does well" and is "very good" ~ both of which statements I concur on ~ ultimately falls flat, in my view, because when we get the Super Bowl, "doing well" and "very good" can fall horribly SHORT.

And it seems to me that there's just no reason to spend 1st Round Picks on the Lawrence Maroneys of the world...

...when EVERY year produces a bounty of High Ceiling ~ Low Cost Running Backs:

3rd ~ Frank Gore
3rd ~ Jamaal Charles
3rd ~ Shonn Greene
4th ~ Marion Barber
4th ~ Brandon Jacobs
4th ~ Darren Sproles
4th ~ Leon Washington
4th ~ Tashard Choice
4th ~ Michael Bush
5th ~ Michael Turner
5th ~ Jerome Harrison
6th ~ Deji Karim
7th ~ Derek Ward
7th ~ Jason Snelling
7th ~ Ahmad Bradshaw
FA ~ Willie Parker
FA ~ Ryan Grant
FA ~ BenJarvus Green
FA ~ Danny WoodHead
FA ~ * Arien Foster *

And that's just recently...

***

You suggest that I was being selective by using Barry Sanders as an example of a "great" Back with an average or poor O Line failing against PlayOff Level Competition...But, respectfully, my good man: you're mistaken. He's only the BEST example I could think of.

Any time you think of a Great Back who did well in the playoffs, he was ~ without exception ~ running behind a Great Line.

It isn't the Backs who make the Line...It's the Line that makes the Backs.

***

It's a very intriguing debate. I look forward to your rebuttal, sir.

 

[Off The Grid]

Last night I got my first look at Nevada RB Vai Taua. Me like!

He gets the ball and bursts through the LOS.

He's good sized (5'11". 220#) and runs with power.

None of the skittering behind the line or constantly trying to break it outside like Maroney.

NICE.

That's what I'M talking about: A nice High Ceiling ~ Low Cost Masher to Move the Chains, while we spend our High Picks on Grizzlies to blast a path for'm!! :rocker:


High Ceiling ~ Low Cost Late Round Prospects

4th HB Roy Helu
5th HB Brandon Saine
5th TB Derrick Locke
6th HB Bilal Powell
7th TB DaRel Scott
7th RB Craig Cooper
7th HB Vai Taua

Man, I would love to see us grab THREE of those guys, as WELL as FB Owen Marecic, after we tender Hyphen Boy so we can ship'm off for a 5th Round Pick!!

 

[mcsully]

Darren McFadden
Rashard Mendenhall
Felix Jones
Chris Johnson

Jake Long
Ryan Clady
Branden Albert
Gosder Cherilus
Chris Williams
Jeff Otah
Sam Baker
Duane Brown

More busts in the second group.

There's more busts because your second gorup has almost 2x as many players.

Johnson is a beast.. The rest have a history of injuries..

2nd group: Long, Clady, Albert, Cherilus, Ota and Baker are all starters.. Albert and Cherilus are solid but not spectacular.. The others would be starters on our team.. Crazy talk..