HEY BRO! WHAT UP?
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CLICK HERE to Register for a free account and login for a smoother ad-free experience. It's easy, and only takes a few moments.If you can't tell, I don't think much of Ray Lewis. Absolutely amazing football player, and the negatives that his 'leadership' brings were worth it at one time, but he's not that player anymore. He's still very, very good, but he's also a large part of the reason why the Ravens are consistently undisciplined.
how much of a cap hit would you take for him; not a few years ago, but now, at this stage of his career?
You don't follow the Ravens, so I'm not going to fault you, but you're completely and totally off in that statement; Ray Lewis is the reason for Baltimore's success.
Ray isn't very smart, he has a giant and annoying ego, and he lied to the police about a murder, but when it comes to his contributions on the football field through physical play and intangibles, he is priceless.
I do agree that Ray shouldn't be faulted for scorers giving him credit, though.
So what do you think he does exceptionally well THIS season? He isn't a liability. I'm just not sure how much of an asset he is beyond the replacements that are available year-to-year.
I agree with everything except for this part. Ray Lewis is one of the smartest football players in the NFL. Nobody can read a QB like Ray and that's why he is a future HoFer. The fire and passion he brings onto the field can only be matched by Brian Dawkins and he motivates that Defense.
Besides leading a high ranking defense in tackles?
Besides reviewing so much tape that he can drop a player like Sproles four yards deep in his backfield on the game-deciding play?
Besides motivating the entire team?
Besides hitting every gap that his linemen provide?
- Rushing the passer
- Covering backs/TEs/slot receivers
- Stout against the run
-Ray is absolutely great at rushing the passer as he, like I said, hits every gap that his linemen create which, logically, results in hits on the quarterback.
-His role isn't, and hasn't ever been to cover backs/TEs/slot recievers.
-He is stout against the run as is evidenced by his takedown of RBs on game deciding-plays, and role as leader of the team in tackles even at his mature age. Like I said.
How can we have a debate about Ray Lewis' skills when you a) don't watch the Ravens and b) disregard statistics?
-Ray is absolutely great at rushing the passer as he, like I said, hits every gap that his linemen create which, logically, results in hits on the quarterback.
-His role isn't, and hasn't ever been to cover backs/TEs/slot recievers.
-He is stout against the run as is evidenced by his takedown of RBs on game deciding-plays, and role as leader of the team in tackles even at his mature age. Like I said.
How can we have a debate about Ray Lewis' skills when you a) don't watch the Ravens and b) disregard statistics?
Using a combination of my personal insights and stats from ProFootballFocus here (although I always take PFF with a grain of salt- its statistics produce some pretty whacky results from time to time that make it clear that they still have major kinks to iron out).
Re: Rushing the Passer:
For an ILB, he is very good at rushing the passer. There aren't a whole lot of 3-4 ILBs in the NFL, so these rankings should be taken with a grain of salt, but he was tied for fourth in sacks for 3-4 ILBs in 2008, and was #1 in QB hits. Didn't get very many pressures, but on the whole you'd gladly take that from your ILB.
Either way, ILB pass-rushing stats usually have as much to do with scheme as they do with player talent, since very few ILBs are consistently rushing the passer. Hence why only one had more than 5 sacks (Bradie James). Frankly, I think that even those rankings are more a product of Rex Ryan than anything, hence David Harris leading 3-4 ILBs in sacks and QB hits through 3 weeks of 2009. Ryan blitzes the ILB a lot, but it's hard to fault to Lewis for that. No matter how you look at it, he's shown that he can rush the passer very capably.
His role/versatility:
In the Pats' traditional 3-4 defense, LBs have to be much more versatile than they have to be in most, which is probably why some Pats fans perceive that as a must, and see it as a shortcoming if a guy can't do it. Obviously, Lewis is not in the Pats' defense, so whatever shortcomings he may or may not have don't matter so much. Also, the stats don't exactly support that that is a weakness in the first place. In 2008, he was statistically very good against the pass, although that's definitely a stat that requires context. FWIW, those same stats say that he's been pretty bad against the pass so far in 2009 (even without the Pats game).
Against the run:
He clearly isn't as good as he once was, when it was standard for him to be assigned two gaps on the same play, and he still just didn't allow positive plays, end of story. That was freakish, though, and there's no shame in going from freakish to very good. For a baseball analogy, it's sorta like how Manny simply can't hit sliders down and away anymore. He no longer has the physical tools to do it, and doesn't even practice it- he's just acknowledged that if a pitcher can place that pitch, then he's striking out. He's still a very good hitter, though, and most guys could never have hit that pitch even in their primes, so it's hard to fault him for it. Not as good as he once was, clearly on the decline, still one of the best: just like Lewis in 2008. Whether or not that's carrying over into 2009 is an interesting question that maybe you can shed some more light on.
My outlook:
I still don't trust many advanced defensive statistics in the NFL. There's too much that they don't account for- far more than offensive statistics, even. I think they're a great starting point, but further insight requires watching a lot of a player. So when the 2009 statistics say that Ray Lewis is playing as a league-average ILB, I don't buy them necessarily. Small sample size, for starters, plus they don't tell everything. You've obviously watched way more of Ray Lewis, so you have that, but OTOH your analysis shows a pretty clear bias, which is understandable.
What I do think defensive statistics are good for, at least, is challenging perceptions. Defensive players, I think, have a tendency to get by on reputation for years at a time. Prior to 2008, I thought that Lewis' reputation as a super pass rusher was ridiculous, and the stats supported that: 2 sacks, 0 pressures, 0 QB hits. In Lewis' case, the stats are going to challenge two perceptions: 1) that he's horribly overrated, and 2) that he's still great. He's neither- he's a top 6-or-7 ILB among 3-4 teams in the NFL (which is still the distinct minority of teams, so he doesn't have a lot of competition either).
In this case, I think the stats are right on for 2008, and I'm anticipating a major 2009 decline that's already been extremely evident through the first quarter of the season. He's 34, has absorbed a beating throughout his career, is asked to take on guards on every play, and was playing for a new contract last year. A contract, btw, that no other team wanted to give him. Given the lack of FA interest in him, I think it was pretty clear how the rest of the league, right or wrong, viewed him. Even Rex Ryan, who was literally waiting in Bart Scott's driveway at midnight on the day that FA opened, had no real interest in Lewis.
In fact, if I'm a Ravens fan, there are two things that I'm really worried about from Sunday. One is my team's poise. Even if they were screwed as badly as they think they were, their reaction was still the wrong one. Say that the league favors the Pats if you want, but we've been screwed worse. There was a pass interference call against Hobbs in the 2006 AFCCG that basically won the game for Indy, and was so egregiously bad that the league issued a letter of apology for it. Yet the Pats still refused to blame anyone but themselves. That's how accountable, disciplined teams conduct themselves, and it's a trait that every SB-winning team since 2001 has shared. If you don't think that's a problem, then that's that, but FWIW I think that it's huge.
The other thing that I'm worried about is Ray Lewis. Not just because that manic, frenetic, ultimately undisciplined culture starts with him, but because the Pats went after him. From my observations, it certainly looked like they were targeting him, and he was flustered by it. On Brady's rushing TD, in particular, he plowed right over Lewis. Well before that play, I was already remarking that we seemed to be running it at Lewis. And the real reason why this is a problem is because the rest of the league is notorious for replicating the Pats' gameplans. There was a stat a year or two ago that broke down teams' winning percentages before they played the Pats vs. after, and the discrepancy was startling. Belichick identifies teams' weaknesses, and they get exploited for the rest of the season, and as I see it the defensive liability that Belichick targeted was Ray Lewis. I could definitely be wrong, but I'll be interested to see if he continues to get picked on.
Haha.. I've put less effort into college papers.
Re: Rushing the Passer:
For an ILB, he is very good at rushing the passer.
No matter how you look at it, he's shown that he can rush the passer very capably.
So in 2008 over the course of a full season, he was good. I don't think we can judge 2009 yet considering that we're four games in.His role/versatility:
In 2008, he was statistically very good against the pass, although that's definitely a stat that requires context. FWIW, those same stats say that he's been pretty bad against the pass so far in 2009 (even without the Pats game).
Against the run:
Not as good as he once was, clearly on the decline, still one of the best: just like Lewis in 2008. Whether or not that's carrying over into 2009 is an interesting question that maybe you can shed some more light on.
My outlook:
Prior to 2008, I thought that Lewis' reputation as a super pass rusher was ridiculous, and the stats supported that: 2 sacks, 0 pressures, 0 QB hits. In Lewis' case, the stats are going to challenge two perceptions: 1) that he's horribly overrated, and 2) that he's still great. He's neither- he's a top 6-or-7 ILB among 3-4 teams in the NFL (which is still the distinct minority of teams, so he doesn't have a lot of competition either).
If you want to project 2009 based on four games, then I simply can't agree.In this case, I think the stats are right on for 2008, and I'm anticipating a major 2009 decline that's already been extremely evident through the first quarter of the season.
He's 34, has absorbed a beating throughout his career, is asked to take on guards on every play, and was playing for a new contract last year. A contract, btw, that no other team wanted to give him. Given the lack of FA interest in him, I think it was pretty clear how the rest of the league, right or wrong, viewed him. Even Rex Ryan, who was literally waiting in Bart Scott's driveway at midnight on the day that FA opened, had no real interest in Lewis.
In fact, if I'm a Ravens fan, there are two things that I'm really worried about from Sunday. One is my team's poise.
So for what he is asked to do, Ray Lewis excels.
So in 2008 over the course of a full season, he was good. I don't think we can judge 2009 yet considering that we're four games in.
So Ray went from being historically good, to just very good on a relative level.
Maybe this is just me as a Ravens fan, but I'm not going to buy into Ray "declining" until I see it over an extended period of time.
Ray is reportedly in his best physical shape ever having lost something like 10/15 pounds, he still studies probably more than anyone else in the league, and it's not like he fell off last season either.
Lewis was never reputed to be mostly a "super pass rusher" in Baltimore. Ray has always been known as an all-around player, and you're only dispelling the purely-arbitrary stereotypes that you have personally heard.
The bottom line is that he is still very good, no?
The problem Ray had on the market is that he is worth exponentially more to the Ravens than he would be to the other potential suitors as he is possibly the most valuable player in the league in terms of intangibles, which is a point that you overlooked. If Ray had gone to Dallas, though, I doubt his intangibles would have been as warmly accepted.
Disregard "off-the-field" pluses if you wish, but having a true leader is invaluable. Ray Lewis has run the Ravens, and any success, or failures, that Baltimore has had can largely be attributed to Ray.
The Ravens have been like this for a full decade, and they're arguably a top five franchise over that period.
New England fans have collectively reached the conclusion that the Ravens' "passion" will be their ultimate downfall, which doesn't mean much to me as Baltimore has had this attitude for a full ten years.
I love how you completely avoided the issue raised by BradyFTW about how we clearly targeted Lewis:The Ravens have been like this for a full decade, and they're arguably a top five franchise over that period.
"The other thing that I'm worried about is Ray Lewis. Not just because that manic, frenetic, ultimately undisciplined culture starts with him, but because the Pats went after him. From my observations, it certainly looked like they were targeting him, and he was flustered by it. On Brady's rushing TD, in particular, he plowed right over Lewis. Well before that play, I was already remarking that we seemed to be running it at Lewis. And the real reason why this is a problem is because the rest of the league is notorious for replicating the Pats' gameplans ... and as I see it, the defensive liability that Belichick targeted was Ray Lewis. I could definitely be wrong, but I'll be interested to see if he continues to get picked on."
However, he was clearly be run at all game and several running plays blew through him like he was not even there, or simply dragged him for several more yards.
I think he had a pretty bad game overall and it will be interesting to see if other teams target him or if he just had a bad game and rebounds.
that manic, frenetic, ultimately undisciplined culture starts with him,
Yeaahhh!!!! Woooooo!!!!!
It was 4th and 1 and we gave up 2 yards!!!!!!!!
Let's get amped up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the best laugh today, man!
And if he didn't know it was 4th down, then he is too stupid and unfocused to call himself a professional. Everybody in that stadium with working neurons knew it was 4th down.