Ras-I Dowling?

[Ring 6]

Maybe you enjoy discussing which players are a bust before they ever play, I don't, which is why I stated I've given up reading draft threads here. There are very few draft picks people don't shake their head at every season and end up discussing how awful A was and how we should have gotten B without ever seeing either play in the NFL..

Regardless of what people on this board may want to tell you, you have every right to actually see a player before passing judgment.

In another thread the same guy telling you that you should abandon message boards if you don't want to guess at whether a guy will be a bust is the same guy who said you cannot include any assessment of a rookie in a position analysis because they haven't played a down in the NFL.

There is way too much 'look at me' posting on this board that comes with trying to tell you how you are supposed to think. I suggest ignoring it.

 

[patfanken]

Hopefully he'll be better than Darius Bustler. Great athlete in college, too bad it didn't translate. That pathetic side step and swat at the ball against Edwards last season still irks me.

Well get over it. There are LOTS of individual plays that players make that "irk" us. Tom Brady makes a dozen or more EVERY year. Should we get rid of him. By all reports Butler has looked VERY good this camp. Who knows if this isn't the year he breaks through and has a very productive year.

There are a lot of things that have to come together to make a good NFL player....and talent often isn't the main thing. Talent is a given at this level.

The difference makers have more to do with a player's confidence. Luck in getting into the right system. (What if Ryan Leaf had gone to a team who had the luxury to sit him for a year and had a coach like Charlie Weiss or Tom Moore to coach him? Or if Aaron Rogers had gone to the 49ers and had to start right away, and Alex Young sat for 3 years with the Packers, maybe we'd be talking about Young being the next "great thing" . Would Joe Montana be the GOAT if he'd gone to play in the Raider offense instead of SF's? The list is endless

Health is another aspect. (Wheatley's failure had a lot more to do with his inability to get on the field than what he showed on it.) Most people consider Ken Sims to be the biggest bust in Pats history, but for get the horrific injury he incurred at the start of his career and that he wound up being a decent DE....just not what you'd expect of the #1 pick in the draft.

BOTTOM LINE: Lay off Butler for the time being. He had a decent rookie year and a disappointing sophomore season. Lots of time to see if he can become a productive player for the Pats and worthy of his mid second round status.

 

[strngplyr]

Well get over it. There are LOTS of individual plays that players make that "irk" us. Tom Brady makes a dozen or more EVERY year. Should we get rid of him. By all reports Butler has looked VERY good this camp. Who knows if this isn't the year he breaks through and has a very productive year.

There are a lot of things that have to come together to make a good NFL player....and talent often isn't the main thing. Talent is a given at this level.

The difference makers have more to do with a player's confidence. Luck in getting into the right system. (What if Ryan Leaf had gone to a team who had the luxury to sit him for a year and had a coach like Charlie Weiss or Tom Moore to coach him? Or if Aaron Rogers had gone to the 49ers and had to start right away, and Alex Young sat for 3 years with the Packers, maybe we'd be talking about Young being the next "great thing" Staying healthy). Would Joe Montana be the GOAT if he'd gone to play in the Raider offense instead of SF's? The list is endless (Wheatley's failure had a lot more to do with his inability to get on the field than what he showed on it.) Most people consider Ken Sims to be the biggest bust in Pats history, but for get the horrific injury he incurred at the start of his career and that he wound up being a decent DE....just not what you'd expect of the #1 pick in the draft.

BOTTOM LINE: Lay off Butler for the time being. He had a decent rookie year and a disappointing sophomore season. Lots of time to see if he can become a productive player for the Pats and worthy of his mid second round status.

I recall hearing the opposite, I read about Arrington's great camp and Butler looking lost. Might be wrong though.

 

[patchick]

I recall hearing the opposite, I read about Arrington's great camp and Butler looking lost. Might be wrong though.

That's what I'm hearing too. The irony for this thread is that Butler was just about the MOST popular BB pick I can recall! A lot of people wanted the Pats to draft him in the 1st round.

 

[Haley]

I recall hearing the opposite, I read about Arrington's great camp and Butler looking lost. Might be wrong though.

I believe you are correct, sir.

 

[Deus Irae]

Not really, I'm not an NFL scout, I don't work these players out, they don't get drafted because the media said they should be drafted there.

I don't believe you for even a millisecond, sorry. Also, you were on this year's draft thread:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/750904-official-day-2-patriots-draft-thread-page6.html#post2533674

So saying you've given up on them is something that we have no evidence for.

Whatever team drafts them obviously sees something of value to draft a player where they did, they don't throw darts. Generally the management makes better football judgement than I do, so I let them do their thing and hold my judgement until I've seen them do something. I'll fully admit that I would sometimes prefer a flashy WR over a LT but like I said, I don't see things the same way the coaches and management do, so I generally have no issue at all with who we pick and when we do.

Your decision to avoid the topic is fine, and it's up to you to decide what you wish to talk about, here and elsewhere. Your post/rant about it was stupid, IMO. There's a difference. As I noted, I agree that it's too early to be calling the kid a bust. That's not a reason to go off on the whole notion of discussing these players early on, for crying out loud. There are players that you can call washouts right away.

We can't change it by arguing about how stupid it was 3 weeks later.

We can't change anything in football by arguing about it on a message board. If that's your requirement, why are you here?

edit: why mention UDFA? You make it sound like we risk something by signing UDFA's, theyre undrafted, it's not like we have to cut TFB to bring in training camp fodder.

UDFA are players too, and talking about them is no different than talking about a first round pick.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I recall hearing the opposite, I read about Arrington's great camp and Butler looking lost. Might be wrong though.

You are NOT wrong. I get what the person who posted was trying to say, and I don't totally disagree. However, he was wrong about reading that Butler was having a good camp. I think that he was just defending the kid a bit. I remember reading that he looks just as bad in camp so far as he looked last season. If I can find that link, then I'll post it. I've read so many camp articles that I don't know which one included the little piece about Butler.

 

[patfanken]

That's what I'm hearing too. The irony for this thread is that Butler was just about the MOST popular BB pick I can recall! A lot of people wanted the Pats to draft him in the 1st round.

PC, can you post a couple of the negative comments about Butler? I haven't heard much said about Butler beyond reading one (which I can't remember off hand) that commented that he looked good, and led me to the impression that he might be coming on. I'm really hoping he can be a solid contributor in the sub packages as well as depth at the CB position.

You are right about him being a popular choice. there were many mocks that had him coming here, and most Pats fans who are being honest though we had a steal getting him in the middle of the 2nd round. In fact most Pats fans would have had the same feeling at the end of his first year.

 

[Haley]

This is one I remember reading:

Butler looked well like Butler (ie bad). He did jump a route and broke up a pass to OchoCinco. Ocho yelled at him "stop cheating" then gave him a high five. So maybe he overheard the play.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england.../785744-training-camp-observations-8-5-a.html

But I also remember reading the one that said he looked lost. Not sure where that one is.

 

[strngplyr]

I don't believe you for even a millisecond, sorry. Also, you were on this year's draft thread:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/750904-official-day-2-patriots-draft-thread-page6.html#post2533674

So saying you've given up on them is something that we have no evidence for.



Your decision to avoid the topic is fine, and it's up to you to decide what you wish to talk about, here and elsewhere. Your post/rant about it was stupid, IMO. There's a difference. As I noted, I agree that it's too early to be calling the kid a bust. That's not a reason to go off on the whole notion of discussing these players early on, for crying out loud. There are players that you can call washouts right away.



We can't change anything in football by arguing about it on a message board. If that's your requirement, why are you here?



UDFA are players too, and talking about them is no different than talking about a first round pick.

1.) I honestly don't have a clue what you're attempting to accomplish. You link me to a post of me stating which draft picks we have. Maybe I posted more in there, I don't remember, I don't care really.

2.) Who did I "go off on"? Did I rage at someone in particular or did I just say that I think judging players before they play is dumb and that *I PERSONALLY DON'T SEE A POINT* in arguing about it in draft threads. I think I stated something about wanting Golden Tate in the 2009 draft thread too. Quite the argument, huh. I'm guilty of a post.

3.) You think your arguments can change what this team does? I'm here to discuss football. You dismissing me because I think I can't change it makes me think that, to you, the only reason you think this board exists is to change what this team does. Uh, good luck. Where did I say that was my requirement to post here? I stated that I think arguing about a draft pick someone thinks is dumb three weeks or three months after drafting his is dumb because we made the pick already and can't change it. I didn't say "NEVER TALK ABOUT THEM AGAIN ITS TOO LATE!"

Quit attempting to put words in my mouth.

4.) I didn't say UDFA's aren't players, but we were referring to draft picks, something we gave up an asset for. You don't do that with UDFA's. How can you classify something you gave up nothing for as a bust? You have no commitment to them. You just cut them. They ARE different from a first round pick because when you draft someone that high you expect an impact. You bring in UDFA's with very little expectation.

edit2: And uh, as for me posting in the draft thread, I don't recall putting a date on when I decided I don't feel like reading this nonsense anymore. I'm getting tired of all the negativity towards players we have seen very little of as of late.

 

[Deus Irae]

1.) I honestly don't have a clue what you're attempting to accomplish. You link me to a post of me stating which draft picks we have. Maybe I posted more in there, I don't remember, I don't care really.

Your words:

I've pretty much given up reading all draft related threads on these forums

Unless you just randomly popped into a draft thread and, for no reason, posted about those picks without reading anything, you were reading a draft thread just this year. I'm not trying to 'accomplish' anything. I'm pointing out an issue with your claim.

2.) Who did I "go off on"? Did I rage at someone in particular or did I just say that I think judging players before they play is dumb and that *I PERSONALLY DON'T SEE A POINT* in arguing about it in draft threads. I think I stated something about wanting Golden Tate in the 2009 draft thread too. Quite the argument, huh. I'm guilty of a post.

You didn't go off on a person. You went off on a notion. I made that clear, and it's right there in the quote.

Also, People have seen these guys play in college. And, actually, your Golden Tate post makes the point. It's not that you don't discuss it. It's that you want it done only under your specific parameters.

3.) You think your arguments can change what this team does? I'm here to discuss football. You dismissing me because I think I can't change it makes me think that, to you, the only reason you think this board exists is to change what this team does. Uh, good luck. Where did I say that was my requirement to post here? I stated that I think arguing about a draft pick someone thinks is dumb three weeks or three months after drafting his is dumb because we made the pick already and can't change it. I didn't say "NEVER TALK ABOUT THEM AGAIN ITS TOO LATE!"

Nowhere did I say that my arguments can change what the team does. I believe I stated, or at least implied, precisely the opposite when I noted

We can't change anything in football by arguing about it on a message board.

Quit attempting to put words in my mouth.

Irony, given the previous part of your post.

 

[Ring 6]

1.) I honestly don't have a clue what you're attempting to accomplish. You link me to a post of me stating which draft picks we have. Maybe I posted more in there, I don't remember, I don't care really.

2.) Who did I "go off on"? Did I rage at someone in particular or did I just say that I think judging players before they play is dumb and that *I PERSONALLY DON'T SEE A POINT* in arguing about it in draft threads. I think I stated something about wanting Golden Tate in the 2009 draft thread too. Quite the argument, huh. I'm guilty of a post.

3.) You think your arguments can change what this team does? I'm here to discuss football. You dismissing me because I think I can't change it makes me think that, to you, the only reason you think this board exists is to change what this team does. Uh, good luck. Where did I say that was my requirement to post here? I stated that I think arguing about a draft pick someone thinks is dumb three weeks or three months after drafting his is dumb because we made the pick already and can't change it. I didn't say "NEVER TALK ABOUT THEM AGAIN ITS TOO LATE!"

Quit attempting to put words in my mouth.

4.) I didn't say UDFA's aren't players, but we were referring to draft picks, something we gave up an asset for. You don't do that with UDFA's. How can you classify something you gave up nothing for as a bust? You have no commitment to them. You just cut them. They ARE different from a first round pick because when you draft someone that high you expect an impact. You bring in UDFA's with very little expectation.

edit2: And uh, as for me posting in the draft thread, I don't recall putting a date on when I decided I don't feel like reading this nonsense anymore. I'm getting tired of all the negativity towards players we have seen very little of as of late.

Yes, it would appear that your only post in that thread that says the Pats have 2 more 2nd round picks disqualifies you from saying that you think it is pointless to discuss a player being a bust before he ever plays.
I think I walked by a butcher shop last week, so I have forfeited my right to ever discuss animal right in DeusIraeland.

 

[strngplyr]

Yes, it would appear that your only post in that thread that says the Pats have 2 more 2nd round picks disqualifies you from saying that you think it is pointless to discuss a player being a bust before he ever plays.
I think I walked by a butcher shop last week, so I have forfeited my right to ever discuss animal right in DeusIraeland.

I'm a terrible person for poking my head in there and stating our 2nd round picks aren't I.

DI can't be wrong though, seeing the negativity this off season and subsequently becoming tired of means I have to go back in time and change my stance from four months ago and remove that post about which 2nd round selections we have. Someday I will figure a way to undo this error without causing a grandfather paradox in the process.

I'm going to create a new Patriots forums and we can discuss animal rights there. I won't judge you for walking by that butcher shop.

 

[Deus Irae]

4.) I didn't say UDFA's aren't players, but we were referring to draft picks, something we gave up an asset for. You don't do that with UDFA's. How can you classify something you gave up nothing for as a bust? You have no commitment to them. You just cut them. They ARE different from a first round pick because when you draft someone that high you expect an impact. You bring in UDFA's with very little expectation.

People still discuss them, and their future prospects, even before they get to the camps. They are no different, in that sense, than any other player. As for the word "bust", all it means is that the player who didn't work out was a highly drafted player. There's nothing inherently different saying "First round pick won't make it" than there is in saying "UDFA won't make it" beyond the perceived value waste. Anyone who's even heard about Raiders drafts this decade should find that easy to understand.

edit2: And uh, as for me posting in the draft thread, I don't recall putting a date on when I decided I don't feel like reading this nonsense anymore.

I didn't say you did put a date on it. I said that we have no evidence that you've actually done as you claim. The fact that you posted in the draft thread from this year would indicate that you are either not telling the truth or that you made the decision some time after making that post. We currently have no way of knowing which of those is true.

I'm getting tired of all the negativity towards players we have seen very little of as of late.

I've long been tired that it's become so rare for anyone to post a negative, or even less than enthusiastic, post about anything Patriots without getting jumped, even when the post is accurate or reasonable. Welcome to the club of the fatigued.

 

[strngplyr]

People still discuss them, and their future prospects, even before they get to the camps. They are no different, in that sense, than any other player. As for the word "bust", all it means is that the player who didn't work out was a highly chosen player. There's nothing inherently different saying "First round pick won't make it" than there is in saying "UDFA won't make it" beyond the perceived value waste. Anyone who's even heard about Raiders drafts this decade should find that easy to understand.



I didn't say you did put a date on it. I said that we have no evidence that you've actually done as you claim. The fact that you posted in the draft thread from this year would indicate that you are either not telling the truth or that you made the decision some time after making that post. We currently have no way of knowing which of those is true.



I've long been tired that it's become so rare for anyone to post a negative, or even less than enthusiastic, post about anything Patriots without getting jumped, even when the post is accurate or reasonable. Welcome to the club of the fatigued.

So this forum operates like the justice system you're trying to tell me, I'm guilty until proven innocent. That's fine if it is how you want to look at it as if you're so distrust.ful (LOL i never saw that edited before here) of someone on an online forum that you can't take their word on their own opinion.

You sound like you're always looking over your shoulder in life. Are you going to make a calendar note for next April to to remind yourself to keep an eye out for me posting? Just so you can catch me doing the dirty by posting in there when I said I don't want to discuss potential draft busts even if I'm just posting our draft picks?

 

[Ring 6]

I didn't say you did put a date on it. I said that we have no evidence that you've actually done as you claim. The fact that you posted in the draft thread from this year would indicate that you are either not telling the truth or that you made the decision some time after making that post. We currently have no way of knowing which of those is true.

Right because this is such a life or death topic that it is very likely the man posted that he stopped reading draft talk out of frustration, and you were so ingenuous to figure out that there is some kind of conspiracy theory going on here that he decided to post that lie, for some reason unknown to anyone, so now he must give you proof that we he stated his feelings about the topic that he wasn't lying.
Dude, you need to remove the tinfoil hat, come out from your Mothers basement and get introduced to the real world.

 

[Synovia]

You sound like you're always looking over your shoulder in life. Are you going to make a calendar note for next April to to remind yourself to keep an eye out for me posting? Just so you can catch me doing the dirty by posting in there when I said I don't want to discuss potential draft busts even if I'm just posting our draft picks?

Yeah, he will. He's not so much concerned about the Patriots, interesting discourse, or cogent analysis. He's interested in proving that everyone else on the internet is wrong.

 

[Ring 6]

Yeah, he will. He's not so much concerned about the Patriots, interesting discourse, or cogent analysis. He's interested in proving that everyone else on the internet is wrong.

LOL at that.

 

[crowell33]

Can you link the Pro Football Weekly info, Im having trouble finding it.

Sorry but its a book. 2011 Pro Football Weekly Draft. The book comes out a couple months after the 2011 Pro Football weekly magazine. If you have the Mel Kiper Blue 2011 draft book, I believe some of the injury issues ( but not all ) are listed there as well.

 

[Ring 6]

Yeah, he will. He's not so much concerned about the Patriots, interesting discourse, or cogent analysis. He's interested in proving that everyone else on the internet is wrong.

The picture in my head when I read a DeusIrae post: