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Ras-I Dowling

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by BPF, May 1, 2011.

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  1. BPF

    BPF Rookie

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    I like this site, this was posted on 4/20:
    The Scouts Notebook

    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  2. BPF

    BPF Rookie

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    Back on March 29th he had this nugget on Mallett.

  3. BPF

    BPF Rookie

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    March 23rd:
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  4. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    You have done some very nice digging...:rocker:
  5. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    A site and analyst I also enjoy reading.
  6. Commodore K'nection

    Commodore K'nection Rookie

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    I don't get it. If you're gonna take Ras-I with the 33rd pick, why not just take the Prince @ 17 instead of Solder. Then take Gabe Carimi at 28 instead of trading out. Then you'd have Amukamara/Carimi instead of Dowling/Solder. Might not have Saints 2012 1st rd pick, but for all intents and purposes that pick is really a 2nd rd pick as it will be 26 or later.
  7. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Because Solder was deemed a better player than Prince at 17. I don't disagree at all. And Carimi would never be anything more than a right tackle in the Patriots' scheme.
  8. Commodore K'nection

    Commodore K'nection Rookie

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    To me it seems Prince is a far superior CB to Dowling. At one point Prince was rated neck and neck with Patrick Peterson. Dowling never even sniffed the top 15.

    Carimi and Solder were pretty closely rated, with Solder the consensus better prospect. However, Pats are unique that they have Sebastian Vollmer they can kick to LT if they draft a RT. Very few teams have this luxury.

    Bottom line, Amukamara/Carimi to me has more value than a Solder/Dowling combo. The drop off between the CBs is pretty big, whereas Solder may have high upside, but low floor, whereas Carimi has high floor/decent upside.
  9. Dufflebagz

    Dufflebagz Rookie

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    Don't base your opinions around what the "experts" rankings were. For all we know BB had Dowling as the 2nd best CB in the draft.

    How do you figure?
    Last edited: May 9, 2011
  10. tuckeverlasting

    tuckeverlasting Rookie

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    bottom line is the value of the fresh prince and carimi v. solder, dowling and the saints no.1 next yr. though option a is intriguiging, i prefer option b.
  11. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    This is easy to answer actually. If you watched the draft special, (posted on the main forum today) they showed Belichick breaking each pick down-- separately of course. He doesn't go into the draft thinking of drafting different combinations of players, for ex: the one you would've rather had in Amukamara and Carimi. He did not 'plan' on taking the combo of Solder and Dowling. If you watch as they break it down, he was actually fielding phone calls for the high majority of the time with the #33rd pick. He talked to multiple teams about the possibility of a trade, but was asking to swap spots this yr in the 2nd AND for a 2012 2nd rounder. When no one met his trade demands (they show him hanging up the phone multiple times at #33), the Patriots simply took the player who they had rated as highest at the time--or at least the player that they all agreed on in Dowling.

    In other words, they had no idea if they'd trade #33 or not when they picked Solder at #17--therefore, they could not predict taking a OL/CB combo, as you say.

    Otherwise, if they could've predicted that, they may have taken the combo you would have wanted, although I still seriously doubt it to be honest.

    Carimi is nowhere as good as Solder, and for all we know Dowling may end up being just as good as Amukamara, if not better.
  12. TealSox

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    Keep in mind, the Patriots would had preferred to trade the 33rd pick for a future 2nd round pick and moving back in the first round. In that scenario, there would be no combo of Solder and Dowling to measure against the combo of Carimi and Amukamara.
  13. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    You mean moving back in the 2nd round, and an additional 2nd rounder for 2012?? That's what the video showed them trying to do--they wanted to swap places with the trading team in the 2nd, + pick up an additional 2012 2nd for doing so.

    I can't see how they'd have traded the pick at 33 (day two) on the first day, especially with having 17 and 28. How could they have moved back in the first round on day two? Or do you mean they'd have preferred to package it with something else on day one?

    Of course, it is 4:40 am, and I may be missing the point entirely--which certainly wouldn't be a first :)
  14. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    First of all, it's pure hindsight that Carimi was available at #28, most mocks had him going higher. (Gosselin's last mock said KC at #26; Seattle shocked everybody by taking Carpenter over Crimini at #25.)

    Beyond that, though, I don't see how Carimi is any kind of swap for Solder given that they play different positions. Solder is a pure LT, Carimi is a pure RT. Which position is more expensive and harder to fill?

    So even assuming you could count on Carimi at #28, the choice was:

    1. Amukamara + Right Tackle + 2010 #33
    v.
    2. Left Tackle + Dowling + Shane Vereen + 2012 1st-round pick

    Amukamara has to be vastly better than Dowling to tilt the balance toward B.
  15. Lamanai

    Lamanai Rookie

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    For what it is worth, in his ESPN pre-Draft special, Bill Parcells had some unfavorable things to say about Prince Amukamara. He was mentioned among the players Parcells thought would drop. Short arms, tendency to bump/grab his man, etc...I got the sense he'd pass on that player.
  16. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    patchick—this post made my brain hurt. :( ;)
  17. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wrongness is painful for sure. Sorry, let's try that again:


    1. Amukamara + Right Tackle + 2011 #33
    v.
    2. Left Tackle + Dowling + Shane Vereen* + 2012 1st-round pick

    Amukamara has to be vastly better than Dowling to tilt the balance toward 2.


    (*In a lot of discussions of pick 28 people talk about the future Saints' pick and forget Vereen, who is not chopped liver.)
  18. SirApropos

    SirApropos Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Agreed. I think they got the RB they always intended to get in Vareen (at #60) and fleeced the Saints out of a 2012 1st rounder.
  19. SanAngeloState

    SanAngeloState Banned

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    I hope dowling can stay healthy, is all I'm worried about. Amukamara has short arms, small hands and a stocky build...not working for me. Blackmon abused him pretty badly in a game when he was one on one.
  20. TealSox

    TealSox Guest

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    My mistake... I meant say swapping the 33rd pick for another teams 2011 2nd round pick in addition to a 2nd round pick in 2012.
  21. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    I believe in your first post, you typed "B" where you meant "A", causing some confusion. In your clarifying post, you seem to make the same error, but using numbers instead of letters, taking the confusion to a new level.
  22. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think I'd better officially retire that post. :)

    My new position, which better reflects my current mental capacity: "What they got seems pretty good because it had good stuff in it, like good players and good draft picks, both of which are good things to have. And if they hadn't gotten stuff that good, that would have been bad, which is worse than good."
    Last edited: May 9, 2011
  23. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Mmmmm Dowling player me good.
  24. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    More Good > Less Good
  25. Metaphors

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    That evaluation (which I generally agree with) applied against any other CB would indicate a possible or even likely move to S. Not sure why his conclusions for Dowling seems to preclude a move to S.

    I'm also not sure why people feel the need to make this position distinction for Dowling...now or in the future. Where he plays on the field could be matchup related or even situational. Where he lines up pre-snap could be different than his responsibilities post-snap.

    The Pats need to get QBs (particularly mediocre ones) out of their comfort zone. What could be more disconcerting than having players like Dowling (press man, slot zone, deep middle) and Chung (deep zone, in the box, coverage LB) wandering all over creation? For me, Dowling has 2 major advantages:

    1) He is comfortable in the middle of the field where bigger receivers roam. This area also happens to be where the quick, easy throws for QBs are.

    2) He is a mistake eater. He doesn't necessarily lock down a receiver but he makes you pay if you throw a weak or ill-advised pass in his area.

    That sounds to me a lot more like Ed Reed than Darrell Revis. Reed helps the Ravens pass rush by making QBs think twice about throwing between the numbers. That hesitation gives the rush an extra second to collapse the pocket. If Dowling develops and is used in this way, I'm thinking he could do the same for the Pats.
  26. Commodore K'nection

    Commodore K'nection Rookie

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    The draftniks feel that Nate Solder has the highest upside of any OT in this draft, however his upside being fulfilled is predicated on Solder getting stronger, filling out his frame and also maintaining his athleticism (as a former TE). Solder as he is constituted right now is merely a decenttackle, but has several flaws due to lack of strength and inexperience with the nuances of the OT position. In college he was just an athlete playing LT.

    Gabe Carimi, on the other hand, has a high floor, meaning there's not much development that has to be done. What you see is what you get. You throw him in there at RT, he's not gonna get abused due to lack of strength, or inexperience with technique. Carimi logged 40+ starts at tackle at Wisconsin, might not have huge potential as Solder, but he's ready to play now. Bottom line, Solder is inferior player to Carimi at the moment (therefore lower floor), but if things go right, should be a better tackle than Carimi down the line (higher upside).
    Last edited: May 9, 2011
  27. Commodore K'nection

    Commodore K'nection Rookie

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    This is funny, more good is better than less good. Why didn't I think of that?


    I get what you guys are saying about BB wanting to trade the 33rd pick, then taking Dowling as BPA because they were unable to.

    I guess in hindsight, knowing the positions the Pats ended up trying to fill, a different (better IMO) combo of players could have been acquired. But then again it's hard to know sitting there at 17 what players will be available at 28 and 33.
    Last edited: May 9, 2011
  28. Oswlek

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    From what I've seen and read, I wouldn't want Carimi on the team in any capacity. I'll take the solder/Dowling combo and be perfectly content. TYVM.
  29. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    Because Nate Solder can become a Bosselli or Ogden, when he is fully matured. Ras-I can become a Woodson, or Revis. Why would you want to take lesser talent? Carimi looks like he is limited to ROT and RAS-I has a higher ceiling than Prince...
    Last edited: May 9, 2011
  30. Off The Grid

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    #3 Jersey

    Indeed.

    A natural acuity for Flipping the Hips ~ Turn + Burn or Verticity, which is my short and sweet term for it ~ seems to me to be the Cardinal trait that one should be looking for in a Corner Back.

    Poor hips??

    Well, then, clearly, Ras I Dowling, as a Corner Back, makes one HELL of a Safety. :rolleyes:
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