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Raise your hand if you think this guy should still be in power

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by khayos, May 29, 2010.

  1. khayos

    khayos Rookie

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    Last edited: May 29, 2010
  2. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    What, then, should we do with our erstwhile "ally" Hosni Mubarak?

    Few object to the idea that Hussein is no longer in power. However, the war was not waged to correct that issue, nor should that necessarily be a raison d'etre for US military action. It's a very slippery slope. Many world leaders brutalize their people, but that doesn't mean we should be putting boots in those countries to bring about regime change.
    Last edited: May 29, 2010
  3. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    Agreed. HW in my opinion should've finished the job in 91.
  4. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    Or, if we're going to play world policeman -- which I agree we usually should not do -- we should have a coherent policy addressing that
  5. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    But it wasn't "politically correct"....

    But no matter what Saddam did, it does not justify the efforts and lies of George W.. nothing can make up for the 5K plus lives and the expenditures of 723 billion dollars..

    Give me that old time CIA or Mossad any day of the week, their efforts would have been just as effective with a lot less expenditures and casualties..
    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  6. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    I personally prefer a much more isolationalist foreign policy. We should be worrying more about solving our own problems, and less about everyone else. If he minded our own business more than we do, we'd be better off as a nation. I'd keep foreign afairs to food aid, education, and maybe some reconstruction with respect to farming, bridges, water treatment plants, etc. All the rest is the worlds problem, not ours.
  7. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    The CIA had Bin Laden in their sites in 98 (IIRC) and Clinton said no because it wouldn't be politically correct to kill the Saudi Princes who were with him.
    I bet those 3000 people who died on Sept 11th would have appreciated a little less political correctness and a lot more ass-kickery.
    And Saddam used chemical weapons on his own people during his campaign of genocide... kind of justifies lots of things IMO.
    The problem as I see it is that political correctness makes it so nothing can get done. I'll take a lie if it means something gets done.
  8. scout

    scout Rookie

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    #15 Jersey

    Let's give equal treatment to other administrations. Bin Laden was also in our armies sites AFTER 911, under the Bush administration.
  9. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    When? And what was our reason for not pulling the trigger? If it was because of political reasons, then my point still stands!
  10. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Exactly, this country's crazy political correctness sh!t gets a lot of people in trouble and gets a lot of people hurt.

    Sappy Pant Suit Hillary once wanted to change the name "Man Hole Cover" to "Person Hole Cover" thats how the Loon Brain Works.
  11. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    All of your statements are open-ended, as if there should be ended with an ellipsis.

    What do you mean by "something gets done"? What gets done without the permission of the People in this country? Lies about getting into a war or about assinating a leader of another country are good? At what point does a foreign policy based on secrecy and lies turn on us?
  12. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    I agree 100%.
  13. Harry Boy

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  14. Patters

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    I think he should still be in power for a number of reasons.

    Taking him out reduced the balance of power in the Middle East, allowing Iran to become a force to be reckoned with.

    Prior to 1991, Iraq was one of the more progressive Arab states, according relatively equal rigths to women, having a high degree of academic freedom (not political freedom), and being the most technically and economically advanced of the Arab States.

    Most of the claims about Saddam's atrocities come from groups that can be seen as special interests of their own. See this, for example,

    Did Saddam Gas His Own People?

    I thought containment was working just fine, and also served to keep Iran in check. I thought continued political pressure would have ultimately forced reform in Iraq. I do not think Saddam Hussein was worth the lives of 4,000 troops and tens of thousands of civilians, not to mention the economic price we are currently experiencing.

    While the survivors might in some ways be better off right now, it remains to be seen how this plays out. It's going to take a lot of success on Iraq's part to balance out the loss of 100,000 people, not to mention the loss of homes, photos, neighborhoods, friends, and so on.

    Iraq Body Count

    Despite all that, I recognize that Saddam was very dangerous, and that many of his atrocities are well documented.
  15. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    So you think everything the CIA/FBI/Military does should be public knowledge? That would make things rather easy for our enemies... (an ellipsis for you!)
    I can't think of a leader of a country that the US has successfully assassinated, is there a particular one you are refering to?
    As for "something gets done", Darryl said he thinks the CIA would be more effective than boots on ground, I then brought up that the CIA had the opportunity to take out Bin Laden but couldn't because of politics which led to nothing being done. It took getting attacked and losing thousands of civilian lives for us to do something. I then followed that up with saying I would prefer a war based on a lie (that would be what you guys call Iraq) than sitting around and letting Saddam remain in power.
  16. Harry Boy

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    He knew how to keep those people of his in line thats for sure, who cares if he had WMD's the whole worlds got them, Al Queda's got them (suicide bombers) Iran's got them (beheadings and stonings) Saddam and his demented sons didn't take any sh!t from any of his people if they crossed him his kids Raped them and then killed them or cut their feet off (law and order :singing:)

    America's Loon Community On Saddams WMD's
    YouTube - Democrats on Iraq + WMD's (Weapons of Mass Destruction)
  17. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    GENOCIDE IN IRAQ: The Anfal Campaign Against the Kurds (Human Rights Watch Report, 1993)
    More information about the genocide of the Kurds without the bias of the current Iraq war.

    And the "it remains to be seen" comment, exactly! We won't start to see the true impacts of these wars on the world for another generation. For all we know we made it possible for a young Iraqi to prosper and eventually cure cancer, or for all we know we created the next Hitler.
    We can argue and protest and argue this side or that side is right, but to be honest, we won't know for a long time.
  18. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    THE CIA MADE BIN LADIN!

    Your world view is wreckless and messy at best. My position is that we have no business interfering in the affairs of other countries if their actions don't harm the US. Your position seems to suggest that we should be taking out whoever the CIA and Pentagon decides needs to go. It's a slippery slope. Your scenario is inconsistent, Otherwise, we would have to take out other despots in Burma, Zimbabwe, etc. It's not our job. We are not the world police. We have more important problems to spend time and money on at home.

    And look up the assassination of Diem of S. Vietnam, 1963. His body was buried next to the US consulate in Saigon. SVA surrogates did the deed, but the US set it up.
  19. Harry Boy

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    God Damn America
  20. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Frankly, my own suspicion is that when you have Iranians, Iraqis, and Kurds fighting, you're going to have a great big mess. All sides most likely committed atrocities, but in that context our war on Iraq was just an extension of those atrocities. But, do note that I am in no way defending Saddam, a sadistic Stalinist to the end. It's just my feeling that if we had left him in, we and the Iraqis very well might have been better off.
    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  21. DarrylS

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    So I guess what George did was ok??? That certainly justifies it..

    None of what Saddam did, will ever justify our military response... it was based on pure, unadulterated lies..
  22. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    The CIA didn't create Bin Laden, he was already a crazy jihadist before us, we just helped train him.
    I didn't say the CIA hasn't set up coups or assassinations or anything like that, I said we haven't done it ourselves. Direction action is a completely different ball park.
    How do you define "harm the US"? And if we don't interfere with the affairs of other countries, how do we maintain being the most powerful country on Earth?
    As for my scenario being inconsistant... how so? I don't recall Burma or Zimbabwe messing with the USA or our allies recently. Why mess with them?
    My world view is wreckless and sloppy? I guess if you say so. My view of the world is that it's fcked on tons of different levels.
    I think the difference in us is I understand that humanity will never create Eden and that humans have the capability for great evil. Unfortunately, the storybooks don't tell the truth and you can't actually kill with kindness. You need bullets.
  23. Harry Boy

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  24. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    You want to argue about who shot Kennedy next? How about if America should have fought in Vietnam? Or what about what you had for lunch yesterday?
    Fun thing is, that no matter what you pick, it'll be the same result. You argueing to no gain. These things all happened in the past. Sure, you might not agree with them, but unless you own a time machine, as I understand physics, you can't change those events. Bush hold a press conference tomorrow saying he's an alien sent from space to invade Iraq and kill Saddam who was a different alien. Would that change the last decade? No.
    I don't care if you think the war was "justified" or not. I don't care if you think Bush IS an alien. All I care is that we DID invade Iraq, and we need to move forward from it in the best way possible for America.
  25. DarrylS

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    Blah, blah, blah same old change the subject, same shyt different day, the bottom line is Bush lied to the American People and many kids died...

    Viet Nam, the Iraq fiasco were based on lies from the onset, and never should have happened.. the problem is many believe the lies after the fact that justified the deaths of many of our young men and women.. not to mention the fact that it cost over 723 Billions.. never mind the "legacy" costs..

    Iraq should have never happened... Viet Nam should have never happened.. come to think of it am hard pressed to believe any war is ever justified..
  26. TBradyOwnsYou

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    Isn't my original arguement that I agree the current Iraq war shouldn't have happened because we should have taken out Saddam in 91?
    And ya, I guess I'm doing the "blah blah blah change the subject" thing because argueing about past events gets us no where. Tell me, what do you gain from saying over and over again that Bush lied?
    As far as using the deaths of soldiers to try and "justify" your arguement, have you ever served? Have you been in a current war zone? Have you seen the flag be draped over one of these "dead kids" before they are loaded on to a helicopter? You have no idea what the cost is.
    The cost is far, far more than you think. But you know what, each and every person who put on that uniform was willing to pay it. We don't expect you to understand it, but we do it anyway.
    And for being hard pressed to believe any war is ever justified? Wow. Really? I feel sorry for you.
  27. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    A few thoughts: wasn't offering assistanceto or training bin Laden a pretty big deal, in retrospect? (ie, I wouldn't say we "just" did that)

    re coups: while it's a step removed from doing it ourselves, setting up or assisting in a coup is still a pretty monumental action. I know a lot of people don't like to look at the other side of these issues, but let's think about what our opinion would be of another nation backing anattempted coup here -- I don't think we'd care all that much if they "merely" planned or funded it.

    Re. our involvement in other nations' affairs -- we have, since the creation if the CIA, interfered in the governing and elections of severalnations that never messed with us -- in fact, it might be argued that none of them ever did anything to us.

    But Darryl, no war is justified (perhaps)? WWII?
  28. Harry Boy

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  29. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    This is one of the biggest misconceptions being thrown around out there. Saddam Hussein, yes. Bin Laden, no.
    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  30. Nikolai

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    #54 Jersey

    If the US would have found WMD and the means to deliver them to the US or its interests, I think fewer people would have objected to the war.

    Saddam Hussein and Iraqi intelligence hoodwinked our intelligence into believing that they had WMD in order to intimidate Iran, Saudi Arabia and other nations that Hussein perceived as a threat to Iraq. Unfortunately, by the time it became apparent that the intel wasn't backing up the claim, the issue had gained political steam, and nothing short of a "cease and desist" from the intel community would have stopped it. For myriad reasons, the 2002 NIE wasn't that document, and though it contained several caveats about key sources (such as CURVEBALL), the political pressure was on to make it appear that active and deliverable WMDs were indeed present in Iraq, or were being produced. The 2002 NIE contained enough nuggets to convince the hawks and many doves that war was a viable option.

    Thar be the pitfalls of the politicization of intelligence. Unfortunately, we've done little to fix that problem (see Leon Panetta vs. Dennis Blair).

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