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Pats_AZ

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Is like to know definitively if the Colts sideline personnel or any Colts staff at anytime checked the PSI of intercepted ball. If so, they would indeed be the only team that day that truly violated the rules as stated. If they DID check the PSI of said ball then I'd also like to know how many times.
 
Also if there is anyone on this forum that has some sort of power or inside ability to ask a member of the media or insider and finds any of these questions good, please feel free to ask your connections.
 
Is like to know definitively if the Colts sideline personnel or any Colts staff at anytime checked the PSI of intercepted ball. If so, they would indeed be the only team that day that truly violated the rules as stated. If they DID check the PSI of said ball then I'd also like to know how many times.

More generally, what was the exact timeline of possession of that ball on Indy's sideline. Who had it, how long, and what was done with it?

If the recent report is true then the real story is why only one ball was 2 psi under--presumably the one in their possession (though to be fair that hasn't been confirmed). The real spotlight would have to shine on the Colts sideline if that's true: what did they do with that ball, if anything, for it to be 2 psi under when the rest were 'just a touch' under 12.5 psi?
 
We have a chain of custody for the suspect ball:
Brady, intercepted by
D'Qwell Jackson who gives ball to
Colts equip manager (name?), who does what with ball before passing it on to
Colts GM Ryan Grigson, who does what with it before taking it to
NFL's Mike Kensil

Who determined that the ball was underinflated? How?
To whom did that person report?
How many times did the ball get tested?
Did anyone else besides those listed above have possesion of the ball?
If so, for what purpose?
 
Who were the "league sources" that gave misleading information to Mortenson, Peter King, and Kravitz that turned this whole thing into a firestorm? League sources who were at one point "shocked and angry", quite an agenda.
 
All my questions about PSI and temperature of the footballs throughout the game will never be answered with an exact reading, so thermodynamics will never get us farther than guesstimating.

Right now I want to know what's been caught on video for both sidelines. If the report is true that only one football out of the 24 was significantly lower than the rest then I want to see video of the Colts tampering with the football all over the Internet. Odds are if such a video exists the league will destroy it.
 
Of course the first questions that need to be answered are what is this all about.
What were the measurements of the psi of the footballs? All of the footballs, and all of the measurements.
This has continued to go on for 3 weeks and no one has even confirmed what the problem, if any, is.

It's pretty hard to know which questions to ask when you don't even know what you are asking questions about.
 
memento, it's easy to "do better than guestimating."

Here's how a ball's allowable pressure range changes with THE TEMP OF THE AIR INSIDE THE BALL.

This chart sets 72°F as the reference temperature, at which the legal min (12.5 psig) & legal max (13.5 psig) are determined. The NFL must select some reference temperature.

Temp Min P Max P
(°F) (psig) (psig)
40 10.9 11.8
45 11.1 12.1
50 11.4 12.3
55 11.6 12.6
60 11.9 12.9
65 12.1 13.1
70 12.4 13.4
72 12.5 13.5
75 12.7 13.7
80 12.9 13.9
85 13.2 14.2
90 13.4 14.5

The above numbers are based on the theory of the Perfect Gas Law.
My experiments indicate that the actual pressure lapse rate (0.06 psi/°F) is about 20% higher than the theoretical (0.051 psi/°F).
 
Last edited:
memento, it's easy to "do better than guestimating."

Here's how a ball's allowable pressure range changes with THE TEMP OF THE AIR INSIDE THE BALL.

This chart sets 72°F as the reference temperature, at which the legal min (12.5 psig) & legal max (13.5 psig) are determined. The NFL must select some reference temperature.

Temp Min P Max P
(°F) (psig) (psig)
40 10.9 11.8
45 11.1 12.1
50 11.4 12.3
55 11.6 12.6
60 11.9 12.9
65 12.1 13.1
70 12.4 13.4
72 12.5 13.5
75 12.7 13.7
80 12.9 13.9
85 13.2 14.2
90 13.4 14.5

The above numbers are based on the theory of the Perfect Gas Law.
My experiments indicate that the actual pressure lapse rate (0.06 psi/°F) is about 20% higher than the theoretical (0.051 psi/°F).

I'm guessing you posted a table of suggested starting gage pressures for referees to reference? I do think that would be practical if football psi is to be upheld throughout future games. I also see referees muttering under their breath about the extra hoops they have to jump through in game ball preparation :mad:

The Perfect Gas Law can give us ranges of values and scenarios, but we need to know the actual values. The starting psig were not recorded, the halftime psig were not recorded, the final psig were not recorded. We are assuming a room temperature of 72°F at the start for both sets of footballs, when the room could have been closer to 80°F. Volume is assumed constant for simplicity's sake, but the rain would cause the footballs to swell a bit as they get waterlogged. All we know is the temperatures and atmospheric pressure during the game and the range of acceptable psig values for the initial footballs' psig. There are too many indeterminate variables to narrow it down to tenths of a psi, which seems to be the bar for criticism here. We can (and have) run tests to show it is plausible to lose a psi or two from game conditions, but we need more concrete information about those specific footballs to know.

We don't even have concrete reporting about how much and how many footballs were below psig. Was it 10/11? Was it 1/11? Were they 2 psig under? Were they 1 psig under? A tick under for all of them? Was only one ball 2 psig under? Were the Colts' balls under? Blandino says none of them were recorded, so it's mostly from memory, and that's a real problem when we're talking about 11-24 footballs down to the tenth of a psi. Oh-- and there's that football game Walt Anderson had to referee.

I value the work and support to crunch the numbers and run the experiments, but we don't have enough concrete information to do more than guesstimate.
 
memento,

The 800 pound gorilla, the only significant factor here is temperature of the air INSIDE THE BALL. One cannot control this temperature, therefore you must measure it in order for the pressure measurement to have any meaning.

Any pressure measurement taken WITHOUT measuring the temperature of the air inside the ball, is completely irrelevant.

Fortunately, this is easy. You stick a calibrated thermistor onto the end of a pressure needle, and measure the internal air temperature before you measure the pressure.

For example, this whole snafu presents the perfect way to really "cheat the system". If you like low-pressure balls, fill them with hot air just before the measurement. If you like high-pressure balls, fill them with cold air. Once the balls equilibrate to game temperature, you will be outside of the regulation pressure range.

All the other factors, water content of the leather, scuffing (really?), expansion of the ball, are noise level and insignificant.

I'm guessing you posted a table of suggested starting gage pressures for referees to reference?

No, not really. Not a "starting pressure" reference.

The starting point chart would have acceptable pressure ranges for temperatures near room temperature, say from about 65° to 80°F, in increments of 1°F.

This is a reference table to use during the game if somebody should squawk the pressure of any particular ball. In order to determine if the pressure was properly set initially, one must measure BOTH the temperature & pressure of the air inside the ball and compare the value to a chart like this.
__

I do think that would be practical if football psi is to be upheld throughout future games.

No, no, no. That is NOT what I am suggesting.

"Maintaining PSI throughout the game" WOULD be a significant change in the way the game is played.

I am advocating, "set them just as they have always been set, 2 hours before the game. But measure the internal air temperature when you do it."
__

I also see referees muttering under their breath about the extra hoops they have to jump through in game ball preparation

TS, Eliot.
Your measurements are out of control. This is what needs to be done to bring them into control.
__

we need to know the actual values. The starting psig were not recorded, the halftime psig were not recorded, the final psig were not recorded.

Yes, if someone is serious about fixing this problem, then they've got to incorporate a very light version of ISO-9000, the same requirements to which all manufacturers must adhere.

The referees must be trained to take the measurements.
The instruments need to be calibrated. (once per year is typical).
All measurements need to be recorded.

One significant question is, "do the balls need to be serialized?" If all of balls for one team are set to the same pressure, then the answer is "no".
__

We are assuming a room temperature of 72°F at the start for both sets of footballs, when the room could have been closer to 80°F.

No, no, no.
By measuring the temperature of the air inside the ball, you do not need to assume anything. That is this method's specific advantage.
__

Volume is assumed constant for simplicity's sake, but the rain would cause the footballs to swell a bit as they get waterlogged.

The volume that matters is only the volume of air bladder inside the football. When the leather swells, it's not immediately clear whether that volume increases or decreases. But I do believe the volume change will be insignificant.

A pragmatic cross check, basketballs (my sport, and I presume indicative of football) get smaller in cold weather.
__

There are too many indeterminate variables to narrow it down to tenths of a psi, which seems to be the bar for criticism here.

We are already "narrowing down to 10ths of a psi": 12.4 PSI is unacceptable, 12.5 psi is acceptable.

We are simply doing this incompetently, with one critical variable - temperature - wildly out of control.
__

We can (and have) run tests to show it is plausible to lose a psi or two from game conditions, but we need more concrete information about those specific footballs to know.

Please elaborate on those "conditions".

In my testing, one ball out of four sprung an air leak, simply from my moving it from a cold bath, to refrigerator, to a test bench.

No 300 pound lineman jumping on it.
This was, shall we say, "eye opening".

But a leak will merely deflate the ball fairly quickly.
__

We don't even have concrete reporting about how much and how many footballs were below psig. Was it 10/11? Was it 1/11? Were they 2 psig under? Were they 1 psig under? A tick under for all of them? Was only one ball 2 psig under? Were the Colts' balls under? Blandino says none of them were recorded, so it's mostly from memory, and that's a real problem when we're talking about 11-24 footballs down to the tenth of a psi. Oh-- and there's that football game Walt Anderson had to referee.

Yes. Absolutely. The lack of documentation makes suspect everything about what went on with the balls during the Colts game.
__

I value the work and support to crunch the numbers and run the experiments, but we don't have enough concrete information to do more than guesstimate.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

We lack concrete information about what happened to the balls during the Colts game. True. That may be lost forever.

We may choose to improve our knowledge about how temperature, pressure, moisture, etc. interact with each other in a football.

But we have ALL THE INFORMATION that we will ever need to determine how pressure and temperature interact with each other in general.

And we can say, with absolute conviction, that the balls behaved according to the rules of this universe.
 
I'd like to know why the NFL has withheld information from the public since day 1. They are not the CIA, releasing everything they knew could have stopped the speculation and given people facts. It doesn't make sense they are being so secretive, and yet also complicit in allowing leaks. There is no reason the investigation must be completed before they tell us the pressures of the balls.

The NFL is thoroughly corrupt and inept, and if Wells finds nothing then heads should roll.
 
I would like to know what constitutes dark matter? And dark energy which supposedly drives the acceleration of cosmic expansion, what exactly is that?
 
I would like to know what constitutes dark matter? And dark energy which supposedly drives the acceleration of cosmic expansion, what exactly is that?
Roger Goodell.
 
I would like to know what constitutes dark matter? And dark energy which supposedly drives the acceleration of cosmic expansion, what exactly is that?
Watch the Avengers...all your questions will be answered. :D
 


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