Questions on Spygate

Discussion in 'Visiting Locker Room' started by speed, Feb 15, 2008.

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  1. speed

    speed On the Game Day Roster

    Seriously and you can flame if you want I won't respond to that simple minded drivel, but I'll start with this. I can't believe this is still going on. Usually when you do your time or pay a penalty, its over. Anyway, I am curious to what the level headed Pats fan thinks about the litany of excuses and the logic that follows:

    1.) It doesn't provide a competitive advantage.

    -If its not an advantage, then why do it (argument on the main board from Chuck Farley, I think)?

    2.) It's not illegal to tape, it was the location of the taping.

    -is this verified by the league or just what Patsfans have adopted as the truth from speculation from the media?

    3.) It was only the minor infraction.

    -Then why the worse penalty in the history of the league and if it was only minor infraction, but the worse penalty ever, then why in the world wouldn't Kraft appeal the decision. He should've demanded a review of the "minor infraction"

    4.) Everyone does it.

    -Is this speculation or have other teams been caught doing it. Link?

    5.) Lastly a question, why did he destroy the tapes? He couldn't protect them from getting out? He can't be serious, the NFL offices are so disorganized and unprofessional that you can't guard confidential information, its not believeable. He can't put them in a safe somewhere that only a few people have access. This hurts the situation more than anything. Why do you think he really destroyed the tapes.


    I try to emphasize if this was my team in this situation. I guess I'd be defensive too, but I think I'd just do what the team is actually doing, nothing. Just say nothing because its over. Specter aside

    Now flame away, but realize I really do mean this as a serious set of questions not an invite to insults or a dis on the Pats, but I again I won't respond to nonsense.

    Lastly, sorry for the loss of the Superbowl, but as time goes on I'm sure you all are realizing there is always next year (I've said that every year of my life, but one, so its like a comfortable pair of shoes at this point). It'll be the draft before you know it and the sting will dissapate for sure with that.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2008
  2. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar In the Starting Line-Up

    #87 Jersey

    1. I do believe it provides a competitive advantage only if the teams you play end up using the same play calls later on. IMO, if a coach was to use the same play signals in a later game then that is plain dumb. Knowing that BB doesn't leave a stone un-turned when preparing for an opponent, he probably reviewed every piece of information he had on a team. I honestly don't believe that these videos gave the Pats a superior edge and BB continuously states that up until recent rule changes that he didn't think it was against the rules.

    2. The Pats obviously broke the rules with the taping of the Jets game, got caught, and accepted the fines. Case closed regardless of location or actual incident. Based on what I've read, the Jets admitted doing it with the Pats permission and the Pats have simultaneously denied giving permission, so I am led to believe it was about the location, but I could be wrong.

    3. Because I believe Goodell was quick to react due to all the negative attention the NFL was receiving due to Pacman Jones and Michael Vick coupled with the ******* media and their incessant drive to report sensationalized tabloid crap rather than the actual news with facts.

    4. Based on what I've read and heard from actual former coaches and players (i.e. Jimmy Johnson) this has been happening in different forms for a long time.

    5. This can only be answered by Goodell himself. Speculation would suggest that he just wanted to bury it and move on without harming the league's reputation. Once again a knee-jerk reaction to the situation. IMO, this whole thing has the potential to blow up in the entire league's face and expose a lot of other teams and figures. The NFL doesn't want to be in the same position as baseball and find themselves under a magnifying glass being asked stupid ******* questions from dirty politicians only interested in personal agendas and publicity.

    It's only my humble opinion, but I hope that helps.
  3. speed

    speed On the Game Day Roster

    Wow, great answers, I have to say I didn't expect such a articulate and logical response. I

    usually I see just the "its not illegal to video tape or everybody does it" response.

    This really is something I can reference to get my mind around it in a more detailed way.

    Thank you.

    I just read that Godell had actually sent the tapes BACK to Foxboro and they were destroyed there, not in NY at the league offices. I just assumed that they were destroyed at the league offices, so I guess my question five still seems to be developing.

    Thanks Fryar!
  4. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar In the Starting Line-Up

    #87 Jersey

    No problem. I'm just calling it based on my own reasoning and what I've read. I'm just sick and tired of all the drivel and nonsense I keep hearing about the Pats. Honestly, I've been a Pats fan since the early 80's as a kid who roots for all the local teams and couldn't understand why anyone would choose otherwise unless, of course, their loyalties are passed down by generation.

    After seeing what BB has accomplished here it is extremely frustrating to see it all kicked around by a "trash" driven media. I often wonder how the likes of Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry, and George Halas would be viewed if they were coaching today. Instead of being the legendary icons of yesteryear some dick-head journalist would try to break them down too.:(
  5. I will agree that these are good arguments, and I'd like to respond to number 1. I will provide the qualifier that I am not attacking you personally, I just don't agree with that kind of logic.

    It could be true that a lot of teams tape the opponents and try to steal signals. However, just because a team might assume someone is actually following the rules doesn't mean they're "dumb." And that doesn't mean they "deserve to lose." I'm sorry, but it's unjustified to blame the other team when you're the one breaking the rules.

    To me, that's like saying "well, if the store didn't want me to steal this iPod (or whatever), then they shouldn't have advertised it so well." You have to take responsibility for your actions and not say "well it's their own fault if they lost because they should assume that everyone videotapes their signals." If you happen to come across a team that doesn't tape signals (I do believe they are out there), then why should they automatically assume their signals are being stolen?

    Also, I agree that there are probably a lot of teams out there trying to steal signals. But stealing signals itself isn't what's wrong. It's using disallowed (I'm trying not to use "illegal" here because people tend to think that means they're breaking laws instead of rules) methods to steal signals.

    If another team is mouthing "blitz," and someone from your team looks over there and sees it, there's nothing wrong with getting information that way. So imo, just because someone says that "stealing signals" is a part of the game doesn't mean they're using disallowed methods to do so.

    Again, I'd like to qualify my arguments by saying that I just want to talk about the logic. I'm not attacking you personally. I'm merely attempting to have a discussion about the topics in your responses. If I sounded offensive, I did not mean to, and I apologize.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2008
  6. speed

    speed On the Game Day Roster

    I didn't take to mean that Nittany. I took it like you later stated you should change your signals period just out of good practice in case the other team remembered them from the last game or from the Fox TV feed or from whatever. I didn't see it as blaming the other team, I think he is saying that taping doesn't give as much of a competitive advantage because each team should change signals from game to game.

    I do see your point its not whether your trying to steal signals, its the how your doing it. Theres a point where its scouting and a point that its not - for every team in every sport.
  7. OK, I can see what you're saying. I agree it's a good practice, but nobody should say that if they didn't change them, they "deserve to lose." It just sounded too much like a rationalization to me. If you play a team late in the regular season, then right away in the postseason (like Jacksonville and Pittsburgh), if you didn't quite get a chance to change your signals yet then it's not really like you're at fault.
  8. I don't think it's dumb to assume that people might be following the rules. Just because it's a competition doesn't mean they need to use "any way they can to gain a [tactical] advantage." Of course anyone who just uses one set of signals probably won't do well in the league. But that's the extreme. I'm saying that just because you don't make a point to change your signals after every game doesn't make you dumb.

    I'm sure the Pats aren't the only ones doing it. However, I do believe that there are teams that are actually following the the rules in terms of methods of stealing signals. I believe that some people see it as it is: a sport. I don't think the Pats are the only ones doing it, but I don't think that there's 31 teams out there who do it and just didn't get caught. If everyone knew that everyone else was stealing signals, why did they wait until after spygate to use other people to hide the defensive signals?

    EDIT: For some reason, I don't see this post that I quoted in this thread. I'm not sure why, because I entered here and quoted it. Oh well, sorry to fair catch fryar if he didn't actually say this.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2008
  9. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar In the Starting Line-Up

    #87 Jersey

    No offense taken. I simply agree to disagree with your logic. I just believe that there are far more teams that play by their "own" set of rules and until everyone does then coaches will keep devising new ways.
  10. Sounds good to me. I like it when people can agree to disagree.
  11. hogsrule61

    hogsrule61 Rookie

    When was the last time a team had the chance to win 4 Super Bowls in 7 years????

    When was the last time a team went 18-0????

    OF COURSE you all cheated and now payback will be hell!

    Mercury Morris
    Perfectville, FL
  12. castlelong1

    castlelong1 Banned

    1) habit. Just like punting on 4th and 1 on the opponents 35 because that is what you alway do. You taped since you came into the league in 1974 with Baltimore so you do it now without ever questioning why.

    2)Read the rule. In one part it says the camera must be in an enclosed area. In the same paragraph it says never. Poorly written rule.

    3) Ask Goodell. Seriously. I can link to three proven get around the salary cap moves getting a third rounder. I can link to Goodell fining the 49ers for contacting Drew Rosenhouse, the agent for several of their players, because the Bears claimed tampering with a guy THEY SIGNED. I can link to the 2001 Rick Reily bit on stealing offensive signals in 2001 (before helmet radios). Seriously, ask Goodell.

    4) I'll give you links if you'll actually read them I seriously doubt
    Broncos. The 49ers did it and so did the Steelers, but I doubt you'll read this one.
    Shanahan brags about keeping binoculars on the sideline if you want a link on sign stealing.

    Since you are a holier than thou Colts fan

    BTW, he admitted to it and stealing playbooks from trash cans after games.

    I removed links because this site sucks. PM me if you want them. I doubt you do.
    5) One leaked. Should he try for several?:D
    (A link to John Czarneki at Fox Sports saying the word is the tapes pictured other teams doing it.)
    Another link for you to not read.
    Liar.:D Or will you start a thread recanting the tripe you spewed?
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2008
  13. castlelong1

    castlelong1 Banned

    Hey, I got 10 post now! Let's see about those links
    JohnCzarnecki on why tapes were destroyed.
    Rick Rielly on sign stealing
    Broncos avoiding salary cap
    Jimmy Johnson on Mudd being best sign stealer
    Howie Long
    see if this goes through.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2008
  14. BadMoFo

    BadMoFo Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    I think you can post your links now that you are at 10 with your post count.
  15. scott c

    scott c On the Game Day Roster

    you said it perv...:singing::singing::singing::singing:
  16. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? Supporter

    No Jersey Selected

    Eh. With the "everyone else does it" excuse, if the Pats go down hard for this, rest assured the flood gates will open on other teams in the NFL (much like the steroid scandal in baseball).
  17. DisgruntledTunaFan

    DisgruntledTunaFan In the Starting Line-Up

    Here's a view from a Cowboys fan...

    I agree that alot of teams cheat to get a competitive advantage, it's not like the Pats are alone.

    However-was it REALLY necessary for the Pats to do so? Pt being that these other teams that taped signals and cheated(i.e. Broncos), how many Super Bowls(let alone playoff games) did they win? Pretty much next to nil.

    It's alot like Barry Bonds and Marion Jones-both are gifted athletes and didn't have to use steroids at all(otherwise, Bonds' homers would have merely gone into the stands, not into the Bay Area river).

    With that being said-all this will pass as time goes on, and Belichick will probably win another Super Bowl or 2 before he goes to the Hall of Fame.
  18. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

    #18 Jersey

    4 & 5 can be answered by one statement that may or may not be true. I has been said by a few media sources that the Patriots tapes contained proof of other teams filming signals. That they actually filmed the other team filming them.

    If that is true, this whole issue is BS. But since the tapes are gone, we'll never know. Ask yourself why YOU think they were destroyed. We all got to see one of the tapes and there was nothing shocking on it, right? Just signal, clock, down & distance...over & over again.
  19. patriotspride

    patriotspride Banned

    Last edited: Apr 10, 2008
  20. AFPatsFan12

    AFPatsFan12 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    A big part of BB's success is leaving no stone unturned, and planning for game situations that happen once every 10 years or so. Remember the David Patten "head laying unconscious out of bounds while touching the ball" play in Buffalo in 2001? After that happened, the team said that BB had drilled them on a wide range of scenarios that COULD occur in the game, and that was one of them. There's a great NFL Films clip from training camp a few years back where BB was grilling Marquise Hill (RIP) about what happens if the offense jumps and they're pinned on their own goalline. He prepares harder than any other coach alive, and if he felt that ANYTHING could be gained from videotaping opponent's coaches, he was going to do it.

    The thing that irks me so badly about this is the failure (or unwillingness) of the sensationalistic media to realize that when 70,000+ people can see someone doing something in plain sight, considering it "spying" is ludicrous.

    And as an aside, the Broncos did win back to back Super Bowls around the time of their illegal salary cap follies, so I would say it could very well have helped them win it all...
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