Questions in the trenches

[mgteich]

I completely agree with the above. Kline/Wendy/Connolly is the worst interior OL in football.
The only hope for this OL, and therefore for the offense, is if by season's end the starters are
Solder - Cannon - Stork/Connolly - Fleming - Vollmer.

Let's start with the obvious.

The team was the #5 team in total offense and the #9 team in rushing in 2013.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

If our only hope is for our starting guards are to be Cannon and Fleming, then we have no hope; not now and not at season's end.

The reality is that we have many, many options for the interior of the line, and many of those will produce a top 5 offense (or better).

This is simply my view. Chicken littles are always welcome here.

 

[Brady6]

Let's start with the obvious.

The team was the #5 team in total offense and the #9 team in rushing in 2013.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

If our only hope is for our starting guards are to be Cannon and Fleming, then we have no hope; not now and not at season's end.

I tend to agree, first Ryan Wendell is probably one of the best run blocking centers in the NFL, he is very explosive on the move, his struggles are in pass protection. Wendell will benefit greatly from the offense being more efficient, he has good stamina so if we can move in an up-tempo fashion it will give him an advantage. Connolly had a great offseason and for the first time in 3 years does not enter the season coming off a surgery.

I think the OL is going to be in good shape, I actually think it is a better line with Vollmer at LG and Cannon at RT than with Mankins at LG.

 

[Brady6]

Hightower could be a really good DT or 3-4 DE. He's athletic for his size just not fast enough to cover or explosive enough for edge rushing. Would anybody ever ask Marcel Dareus to cover or chase sideline to sideline all day. Hightower is nearly as big as Dare us who is practically a NT. Hightower isn't fast and athletic for LB but he would be very athletic for a DT or 3-4 DE, similar to henry Melton becoming a DT. High tower could easily grow to nearly 300 lbs. This is him with Dereus

Damn Darius has been eating since he entered the NFL.. .

 

[manxman2601]

Hightower could be a really good DT or 3-4 DE. He's athletic for his size just not fast enough to cover or explosive enough for edge rushing. Would anybody ever ask Marcel Dareus to cover or chase sideline to sideline all day. Hightower is nearly as big as Dare us who is practically a NT. Hightower isn't fast and athletic for LB but he would be very athletic for a DT or 3-4 DE, similar to henry Melton becoming a DT. High tower could easily grow to nearly 300 lbs. This is him with Dereus

I have to take issue with you over the bolded a bit. Hightower ran a 4.62 40 at the combine. For perspective, that's faster than Anthony Barr and Khalil Mack from the last draft and in terms of the 2014 combine, only two linebackers ran faster. One was Kevin Pierre-Louis who had ridiculous athleticism and the other weighed 218lbs (Telvin Smith).

Obviously the 40 doesn't tell the whole story and it was about the only drill Hightower did pre-draft so we don't have other measurements to judge him by but he is very athletic for someone of his size and I agree with you that it would be interesting to see what he could do on the DL.

 

[PatFanCraig]

Let's start with the obvious.

The team was the #5 team in total offense and the #9 team in rushing in 2013.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

Many options on the Online but how many are NFL starting caliber. Last yr Brady had to set and release or else be sacked. Homers can get excited bout any player wearing a patriot uniform but when these UFA lineman Wendell connolly and Kline face better DLines including they are going to crumble like the playoffs every yr. They get away with it against 75% of teams due to good chemistry and doubling a player they can't handle one one one because Brady is so good at getting rid of the ball with sniper accuracy. But when they play the better DLines in the playoffs with more Good Lineman than they can double they crumble. They made Mankins look bad by getting moved off the ball. With no experienced WR over 5'9 they leaned on the run last yr. They got away with the run because defenses still feared Brady even with no weapons til the broncos caught on.many of My friends hate the patriots and Brady but have mega respect for him. They show me on highlights of Brady looking skittish at times but admit any qb would with that Online, they admit that and pass up the opportunity to bash Brady because they are honest and could clearly see that the center and guard sucked. Cannon and Fleming have the talent and power to be good once they get some games played,they should be really good by playoffs. Wendy,Kline and Connolly have below average power and talent. They are ball Unwanted UFAs no other team wanted. Connolly can play center OK but the others if cut wouldn't find a job in the NFL. If they start, everybody that defends them will have to answer when they crumble AGAIN. Anybody who didn't notice needs to watch some recorded games from last year. I knew they weren't great and wanted to upgrade over them but I didn't know how bad they were til somebody with a very keen eye for watching multiple things going on in games pointed it out. I watched some games on my DVR looking at the center and r guard and he was right, they crumbled and sometimes made mankins look bad with them. Cannon and Fleming have prototype size and talent of many standout guards in the NFL who played tackle in college, why not start them and let them get up to speed by playoffs

If our only hope is for our starting guards are to be Cannon and Fleming, then we have no hope; not now and not at season's end.

The reality is that we have many, many options for the interior of the line, and many of those will produce a top 5 offense (or better).

This is simply my view. Chicken littles are always welcome here.

 

[PatFanCraig]

I have to take issue with you over the bolded a bit. Hightower ran a 4.62 40 at the combine. For perspective, that's faster than Anthony Barr and Khalil Mack from the last draft and in terms of the 2014 combine, only two linebackers ran faster. One was Kevin Pierre-Louis who had ridiculous athleticism and the other weighed 218lbs (Telvin Smith).

Obviously the 40 doesn't tell the whole story and it was about the only drill Hightower did pre-draft so we don't have other measurements to judge him by but he is very athletic for someone of his size and I agree with you that it would be interesting to see what he could do on the DL.

Telvin should end up about 230 which is close to what all the standouts weigh. Hightower doesn't play near that 40 time. He loses when trying to cover a TE even in straight line sprints. And he doesn't play at 4.62 chasing sideline to sideline. He is to huge to cover TEs in the league loaded with TEs nearly as fast as WRs. He struggled with coverage in college and the NFL TEs are faster and better. Hightower is over 270 lbs and that's him keeping his weight down to play LB. However he is very very strong and stout and very athletic for near 280 lbs. Just not explosive for a LB or edge rusher. If he stopped trying to keep his weight down he could easily bulk to a near 300 lb DT or 3-4 Defensive end while retaining most of his athleticism and speed. With his power and athleticism he could be a freakish DT or 3-4 end I have seen him standing still and stop FBs with a running start and ragdoll them. He is powerful and should easily still run a 4.75 and jump over 30" , well over 9' broadjump and a 7.5 3cone as a 297 pound DT or 3-4 end. Which is a freakish penetrating DT, the kind the whole nfl looks all over for. His frame is every bit as big as Marcel Dareus who is NT size and he dwarfs Dominique Easley. Hightower who cane barely keep his playweight below 275 lbs and thats trying to keep it down is way out of position at LB chasing and covering TEs and RBs. He even said himself he would rather play the DLine than chase a speedy Shane vereen around. If we play 3-4 I think High tower would be an awesome 3-4 end similar to henry melton

 

[manxman2601]

Telvin should end up about 230 which is close to what all the standouts weigh. Hightower doesn't play near that 40 time. He loses when trying to cover a TE even in straight line sprints. And he doesn't play at 4.62 chasing sideline to sideline. He is to huge to cover TEs in the league loaded with TEs nearly as fast as WRs. He struggled with coverage in college and the NFL TEs are faster and better. Hightower is over 270 lbs and that's him keeping his weight down to play LB. However he is very very strong and stout and very athletic for near 280 lbs. Just not explosive for a LB or edge rusher. If he stopped trying to keep his weight down he could easily bulk to a near 300 lb DT or 3-4 Defensive end while retaining most of his athleticism and speed. With his power and athleticism he could be a freakish DT or 3-4 end I have seen him standing still and stop FBs with a running start and ragdoll them. He is powerful and should easily still run a 4.75 and jump over 30" , well over 9' broadjump and a 7.5 3cone as a 297 pound DT or 3-4 end. Which is a freakish penetrating DT, the kind the whole nfl looks all over for. His frame is every bit as big as Marcel Dareus who is NT size and he dwarfs Dominique Easley. Hightower who cane barely keep his playweight below 275 lbs and thats trying to keep it down is way out of position at LB chasing and covering TEs and RBs. He even said himself he would rather play the DLine than chase a speedy Shane vereen around. If we play 3-4 I think High tower would be an awesome 3-4 end similar to henry melton

I disagree with your interpretation of his speed. He might not have outstanding COD speed but I remember him getting to the sideline very quickly at Alabama. Personally I want to keep him at 270 or thereabouts. That's an advantage at ILB in the run game and a good weight to play as an Edge rusher where I think Hightower could perform well enough to back up or replace Nink in the longer term. I would have no objection trying him as an interior rusher at times as well. 270b linebackers don't come around too often and I think it imprudent to discard them so easily when they do.

 

[Brady6]

Telvin should end up about 230 which is close to what all the standouts weigh. Hightower doesn't play near that 40 time. He loses when trying to cover a TE even in straight line sprints. And he doesn't play at 4.62 chasing sideline to sideline. He is to huge to cover TEs in the league loaded with TEs nearly as fast as WRs. He struggled with coverage in college and the NFL TEs are faster and better. Hightower is over 270 lbs and that's him keeping his weight down to play LB. However he is very very strong and stout and very athletic for near 280 lbs. Just not explosive for a LB or edge rusher. If he stopped trying to keep his weight down he could easily bulk to a near 300 lb DT or 3-4 Defensive end while retaining most of his athleticism and speed. With his power and athleticism he could be a freakish DT or 3-4 end I have seen him standing still and stop FBs with a running start and ragdoll them. He is powerful and should easily still run a 4.75 and jump over 30" , well over 9' broadjump and a 7.5 3cone as a 297 pound DT or 3-4 end. Which is a freakish penetrating DT, the kind the whole nfl looks all over for. His frame is every bit as big as Marcel Dareus who is NT size and he dwarfs Dominique Easley. Hightower who cane barely keep his playweight below 275 lbs and thats trying to keep it down is way out of position at LB chasing and covering TEs and RBs. He even said himself he would rather play the DLine than chase a speedy Shane vereen around. If we play 3-4 I think High tower would be an awesome 3-4 end similar to henry melton

Melton is a 4-3 DT who plays the 3-Tech primarily, he is not a 3-4 DE, he has only played in Chicago and Dallas both run 4-3. Generally, the better 3-4 DE are tall, 6’4” or 6’5” so they can use their long arms against the OT. I think you could convert Hightower to a Leo DE as they have done with Ninkovich, but attempting to convert him to 34 DE or 43 DT is like trying to convert Revis to LB in my opinion, you are talking about bulking a guy up 35+ lbs. without any significant loss in his athletic ability.

 

[mayoclinic]

I disagree with your interpretation of his speed. He might not have outstanding COD speed but I remember him getting to the sideline very quickly at Alabama. Personally I want to keep him at 270 or thereabouts. That's an advantage at ILB in the run game and a good weight to play as an Edge rusher where I think Hightower could perform well enough to back up or replace Nink in the longer term. I would have no objection trying him as an interior rusher at times as well. 270b linebackers don't come around too often and I think it imprudent to discard them so easily when they do.

The following article by Sterling Xie written at the start of training camp presents a fairly balanced view, IMO:

Why New England Patriots Linebacker Dont'a Hightower Will Bounce Back In 2014 | Bleacher Report

Hightower's lack of lateral agility will always limit him in space, IMO. He has decent but not exceptional instincts and zone coverage ability. I think his best role is as a ILB in the "base" and a backup to Ninkovich at RDE, and as an extra pass rusher in sub packages.

 

[PatFanCraig]

Melton is a 4-3 DT who plays the 3-Tech primarily, he is not a 3-4 DE, he has only played in Chicago and Dallas both run 4-3. Generally, the better 3-4 DE are tall, 6’4” or 6’5” so they can use their long arms against the OT. I think you could convert Hightower to a Leo DE as they have done with Ninkovich, but attempting to convert him to 34 DE or 43 DT is like trying to convert Revis to LB in my opinion, you are talking about bulking a guy up 35+ lbs. without any significant loss in his athletic ability.

Max is talking like being a 270+ lb LB is an advantage, not at all for what a LBs duties are. Every tackle he makes isn't going to be in the trenches. Kaepernick takes off and its going for big yards. Show me a standout LB in the NFL that much over 240 lbs much less over 270. High tower would not need to bulk up much to play DT or 3-4 end. Look at his frame next to Marcel Dareus, every bit as big. Saban said Upshaw bulked his frame up to play Dline but Hightower is the bigger framed guy and trys to keep his weight to LB standards. I don't think he loses that much athleticism gaining 20 lbs. He is strong and he is huge and not nearly quick enough to cover or cut off Wilson or Kaepernick. He was benched twice last year for terrible cover skills. I knew he was big but didn't think his frame size was as big as Dareus a NT. Dareus is just thickened up. Hightower would just need to get close to 300 to play 3-4 de not 320 to play NT.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Hightower could be a really good DT or 3-4 DE. He's athletic for his size just not fast enough to cover or explosive enough for edge rushing. Would anybody ever ask Marcel Dareus to cover or chase sideline to sideline all day. Hightower is nearly as big as Dare us who is practically a NT. Hightower isn't fast and athletic for LB but he would be very athletic for a DT or 3-4 DE, similar to henry Melton becoming a DT. High tower could easily grow to nearly 300 lbs. This is him with Dereus

Dareus has 60 pounds on Hightower.

 

[mayoclinic]

BB has apparently decided on his starting LG for the Miami game, but naturally he isn't telling.

Bill Belichick Picks Patriots' Replacement For Logan Mankins, Won't Reveal It | NESN.com

 

[RIpats88]

I wonder if you could put Hightower into pass rushing situations and have Ninkovich go into pass coverage. he has played linebacker before the pats moved him to DE

 

[yopats]

I wouldn't be surprised if this what OL looks during and after the Miami game.

LT - Solder - LG - Connolly - C - Stork - RG Cannon - RT - Vollmer

 

[Oswlek]

Let's start with the obvious.

The team was the #5 team in total offense and the #9 team in rushing in 2013.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

If our only hope is for our starting guards are to be Cannon and Fleming, then we have no hope; not now and not at season's end.

The reality is that we have many, many options for the interior of the line, and many of those will produce a top 5 offense (or better).

This is simply my view. Chicken littles are always welcome here.

A line of Solder/Cannon/Connolly/Fleming/Vollmer would be significantly better than the OLs that reigned supreme in 2008 and 2011. They'd also be better than what Baltimore had in 2012, though it should be noted that the Ravens made some changes at the end of the year that improved their play.

Obviously, you'd rather have the fortress NY had in 2007, but it is hardly unprecedented that a championship team has a mediocre OL. The problem last year is that NE had the double barreled issues of no weapons and no protection. Not good. As much as the line was dominated in 2007, Brady having no mobility didn't do them any favors either.

 

[mayoclinic]

A line of Solder/Cannon/Connolly/Fleming/Vollmer would be significantly better than the OLs that reigned supreme in 2008 and 2011.

That would be a very intriguing line.

Other intriguing combos to me include Solder/Cannon/Stork/Connolly/Vollmer, Solder/Connolly/Stork/Cannon/Vollmer, and Solder/Vollmer/Stork/Connolly/Cannon.

I'm not sure Fleming is there yet, but right now the guys with starting capability who I see are Solder, Vollmer, Cannon, Connolly, Stork and Fleming. That's 6 guys for 5 starting spots. Find any combination that keeps Wendell, Kline and Devey to backups, and I think we're better off than we were a year ago. I suspect Wendell will get the start week 1, but I'm holding my breath until one of the rookies bumps him down the depth chart.

 

[PatFanCraig]

Dare us may have 50 lbs on high tower but its mostly junk weight. Look at the pic, Hightowers frame is as big as Dareus and could hold nearly as much. Not that I want him to bulk as much to not size but another 20 lbs to get him close to 300 to play penetrating DT or 3-4. He is strong as he!! And could play 3-4 end now but would serve better playing the line at near 300. He is to big for lb. You saw last night what happens when lbs are to slow to cover or chase down a running qb. Jones holding call put the game away last night. The packers weakness is at iLB where running qbs kill them. What's with packers gm, what moron would throw 10 mil a year at Peppers when a near elite pass rusher in his prime was on the market in Bennett

 

[PatFanCraig]

I like the 3-4 and the speed intensity Collins Jones brings at OLB Mayo at one inside spot and Niko moving back inside til we find a more explosive ilb. With Hightower bulking some to play part of the 3-4 line rotation. Just need another ilb alongside mayo. Not sure if ninko can still play lb,or if he can cover but he does hustle.

As for the online we know Wendy Kline and devey can only block 2 on 1. They should be nightclub bouncers, not NFL lineman, they already have the 2 on1 thing down. Connolly is competent at center but not guard. Look at how ineffective Rodgers was when his oline can't protect him and he actually has good mobility. Its not just the qb, WRs don't have time to run their routes when the online can't block. I think we should start Cannon and Fleming at guard so they can be up to speed by playoffs. James Carpenter is latest 325 lb power tackle to look great at guard. Fleming has prototype Guard skills why would anybody not want to go with

Solder
Cannon
Connolly/Stork
Fleming
Vollmer

 

[captain stone]

I wouldn't be surprised if this what OL looks during and after the Miami game.

LT - Solder - LG - Connolly - C - Stork - RG Cannon - RT - Vollmer

Not sure yet if Stork is ready to play significant snaps v Miami.

 

[Brady6]

Not sure yet if Stork is ready to play significant snaps v Miami.

I agree, I do not even think he will be active.