Questions in the trenches

[Brady6]

On the offensive and defensive side of the football, we have question marks in the trenches.

OL – I have Nate Solder, Sebastian Vollmer, Marcus Cannon, and Dan Connolly penciled in as starters, but outside of Solder, I am not sure what position they will play. Beyond those 4 who is the 5th starter – Kline, Devey, Wendell, Stork?

DL – I only have Wilfork penciled in as a starter, in a 3-4 who are the 2 DL? In a 4-3 who will be the 3-Tech DT?

Share your thoughts, and projections.

 

[hwc]

I think that "pencilling in starters" is a largely meaningly exercise in a 19 game season that will require every player on the roster to get to the finish line.

Especially on the defensive front where the concept of a "starter" really doesn't even have any meaning when sub packages rule and more than half the snaps are in nickle or dime packages. The important thing in a fast-break fast-paced offensive passing league is being able to constantly rotate the d-linemen into and out of the game and to play the "ends" in multiple positions to best disguise the pass rush and confuse the QB.

I just think that obsessing over who will be the 22 "starters" on opening day (or any other game day) is an obsolete concept in this league and on this team that relies so much on game planning, situational football, and multiple packages.

If you insist, I think the only question on the o-line is whether Volmer or Cannon is the "starter" at right tackle. One will start, the other will be the third tackle, used extensively as a blocking "tight end" in power formations.

 

[hwc]

BTW, I think the thing that KILLED the Pats last year, more than any other aspect of the injuries, was the fact that they had to have "starters" on the d-line and play them the entire game. In this league, with these offenses, that approach means that your d-line steadily declines over the course of the game. I strongly suspect that Belichick would prefer to use more of Seattle's approach and rotate guys in and out constantly throughout the game. Everything I see from his roster building suggests that he is putting together a group of young explosive d-linemen suited to doing just that, with Wilfork being the one "throwback" to the old Belichick ways.

I think watching what Belichick does on the d-line is one of the most fascinating questions, but I suspect it's at a level of sophistication that puts "naming the starters" at the kindergarten fantasy football level.

Not raggin' on you. I just think the Belichick (and all of the better NFL coaches) are moving chess pieces at a level that makes conventional fan and mediot analysis laughable. Belichick says it over and over and over. It's irrelevant who "starts".

 

[Oswlek]

BTW, I think the thing that KILLED the Pats last year, more than any other aspect of the injuries, was the fact that they had to have "starters" on the d-line and play them the entire game. In this league, with these offenses, that approach means that your d-line steadily declines over the course of the game.

And over the course of the season as well.

This is a very insightful statement, something that makes NE's DL depth even more understandable. It is interesting how often Bill carpet bombs areas that had depth issues the year before, even when those depth issues were injury related.

 

[hwc]

I sense that the thing that is frustrating the Andy Harts, Paul Perillos, and other mediots is that the Pats have "all these guys" on the d-line or on the o-line or in the secondary and they can't figure who the starters are -- which means the Pats will suck because they don't even have starters.

I don't see Belichick thinking like that. Certainly, in training camp, he's trying to put together the largest group of players he can in each position group. He's thinking multiple skill-sets and depth, not positions at the start of any given game. If I'm right, Belichick couldn't care less whether Browner or Dennard "starts", but he's happy as hell to have both skill sets to use in the appropriate packages. I think it's exactly the same on the d-line.

 

[PatFanCraig]

Or is that just another way of saying you have positions where nobody has shown the ability to be the clearcut starter who can do whatever you need him to. Of course you need capable backups to rest your starters. Sure you have third and long special alignments. But a clear starter in most cases can do most things very well. As in the better LBs don't have to leave the field on throwing downs

 

[cstjohn17]

Not raggin' on you. I just think the Belichick (and all of the better NFL coaches) are moving chess pieces at a level that makes conventional fan and mediot analysis laughable. Belichick says it over and over and over. It's irrelevant who "starts".

I don't think starters matter much for the defensive line because the defense has to react to offensive formations and tenancies.

But for the offensive line continuity is very important. In a perfect world the O line would play with very little substitution. Personally I will be a little surprised if Vollmer moves inside for game 1, maybe later in the season but not for now.

 

[hwc]

If you think continuity is most important on the O-line, then you go with last year's group, plugging in the young Kline for old Mankins: Soldier - Kline - Wendell - Connolley - Cannon.

 

[BradyFTW!]

On the offensive and defensive side of the football, we have question marks in the trenches.

OL – I have Nate Solder, Sebastian Vollmer, Marcus Cannon, and Dan Connolly penciled in as starters, but outside of Solder, I am not sure what position they will play. Beyond those 4 who is the 5th starter – Kline, Devey, Wendell, Stork?

DL – I only have Wilfork penciled in as a starter, in a 3-4 who are the 2 DL? In a 4-3 who will be the 3-Tech DT?

Share your thoughts, and projections.

I think we can safely pencil in Chandler Jones and Ninkovich as starters, the only question being alignment. Alignment will influence the assignments of each player, but I don't think it will play a huge impact on who's on the field. In the front 7, I expect Wilfork, Ninkovich, Jones, Mayo, and Collins to be on the field most of the time. They're scheme versatile guys who can play in a hybrid 4-3 on a primarily two-gapping 3-4. That really only leaves two more as question marks (and, honestly, I think the defense will be unofficially base nickel, so really 1). So to whatever extent there are question marks, they're kinda manufactured question marks on account of scheme uncertainty.

In a 4-3, it's pretty easy to guess that Easley or Chris Jones will be getting the DT snaps next to Wilfork, and when there's a third LB it'll be Hightower. If the Pats are going 3-4, it could be harder to say. Maybe Chandler Jones plays DE. Maybe Hightower fits as an ILB. Hard to say.

 

[BradyFTW!]

If you think continuity is most important on the O-line, then you go with last year's group, plugging in the young Kline for old Mankins: Soldier - Kline - Wendell - Connolley - Cannon.

I'm worried that that's how this is going to go (minus RT). Worried because, if you think that competence and talent are most important on an o-line, you do everything you can to make sure that Wendell isn't starting.

 

[JackBauer]

If you think continuity is most important on the O-line, then you go with last year's group, plugging in the young Kline for old Mankins: Soldier - Kline - Wendell - Connolley - Cannon.

You're really going to leave Vollmer on the bench?

 

[juny]

I would bet that the starting OL would be Solder, Kline, Wendell, Connolly, Vollmer.

Surprised to see Vollmer at G since he hasn't played there ever, that's the only way Cannon breaks the starting lineup.

 

[mgteich]

GENERAL COMMENT
To me, it is more interesting who gets the most reps, not who starts the game. That being said, I'll play.

OFFENSE
I expect the starters to be the same as last year, with Kline replacing Mankins. However, I have absolutely no concerns with other setups. Personally, I think that Cannon is a fine backup OT and do not expect to see him start at OG. How many reps has he had at OG? Surely, there would have been more if he were to be the starter; at least that's my take.

DEFENSIVE ENDS
Ninkovich and Jones and pray for rain (a Red Sox reference for the old timers). I certainly hope that Easley could give Ninko and Jones some rest, but I see Easley as an inside player. Buchanan is a sub DE/OLB, hopefully improved.

DEFENSIVE TACKLES
Here we have Wilfork and lots and lots of guys at the next level. As with the OL, I am not concerned with who gets the most reps. There are lots of good choices. We have the three who gave us a top 10 defense last year, plus Easley (and of course plus Wilfork). We are in fine shape at DT.

 

[Brady6]

I think that "pencilling in starters" is a largely meaningly exercise in a 19 game season that will require every player on the roster to get to the finish line.

My OP was in reference to this Sunday not the other games.

The season is 17 weeks long with 1 of those weeks being a bye week, and a team can play as many as 4 post-season games. The Patriots played 18 games last season over 20 weeks.

 

[hwc]

You're really going to leave Vollmer on the bench?

No. I'm not. I'm just responding to someone who said that continuity is the most important thing on the o-line.

I don't know whether Vollmer or Cannon will get the nod. Both are starting caliber NFL tackles and, along with Soldier, give the Pats a strong lineup of three tackles. If Vollmer were completely healthy and able to handle the snaps, I would think he probably gets the nod. With the leg injury and his chronic back problems, I could also see his health being a better fit for a little more limited action. I don't think it's a big deal either way. Both Vollmer and Cannon are proven NFL starters.

 

[PatFanCraig]

Bill said Cannon could play any OL position if he got couple games to settle in. There's no way Kline and Wendell should be starting while Cannons on the bench. Last year Wendell sucked at center and Conolly sucked at Right guard. That's indisputable fact. However in the past Connolly has shown to be a competent center where his reps going man up with better DTs and 3-4 Ends like Atkins Ngata Such McCoy to name a couple. And Wendell just can't match up physically with even the solid DTs and NTs. Why not just try Fleming at guard and put Connolly back at center. Fleming is leaps and bounds more physically talented than Wendell Connolly or Kline I mean you already know Wendell at Center and Connolly at guard is terrible and only any good when they can double team a defender. Fleming has similar talent of many players that were strong stout tackles in college that have become standout guards like Nicks,Yanda Osemele,Mankins,Long,Evans. Could he be any worse than Wendell at center with Connolly at guard did last year. But he could likely be way better.

If they play some 3-4 I think Collins gets some reps rushing opposite Jones. And coaches are hoping a 3 down starter steps up at DT or 3-4 DE who only comes out for a break.

 

[hwc]

Last year Wendell sucked at center and Conolly sucked at Right guard. That's indisputable fact.

I don't think that's indisputable fact. I have no idea how either of them graded out. Must have been OK because both of them are still on the roster.

Of course, Belichick also invested heavily in O-Line in the draft. I'm sure that he will be interested in Stork's development and what kind of role he earns himself. In a perfect world, he would surpass Wendell at some point this season, making Wendell an excellent backup. But, the center has so much responsibility for line calls in a complex offense, who knows what the timeline on Stork would be.

 

[PatFanCraig]

Hightower could be a really good DT or 3-4 DE. He's athletic for his size just not fast enough to cover or explosive enough for edge rushing. Would anybody ever ask Marcel Dareus to cover or chase sideline to sideline all day. Hightower is nearly as big as Dare us who is practically a NT. Hightower isn't fast and athletic for LB but he would be very athletic for a DT or 3-4 DE, similar to henry Melton becoming a DT. High tower could easily grow to nearly 300 lbs. This is him with Dereus

 

[manxman2601]

Judging by the facial hair, I think the "who will play LG?" question has been resolved.

 

[captain stone]

Bill said Cannon could play any OL position if he got couple games to settle in. There's no way Kline and Wendell should be starting while Cannons on the bench. Last year Wendell sucked at center and Conolly sucked at Right guard. That's indisputable fact. However in the past Connolly has shown to be a competent center where his reps going man up with better DTs and 3-4 Ends like Atkins Ngata Such McCoy to name a couple. And Wendell just can't match up physically with even the solid DTs and NTs. Why not just try Fleming at guard and put Connolly back at center. Fleming is leaps and bounds more physically talented than Wendell Connolly or Kline I mean you already know Wendell at Center and Connolly at guard is terrible and only any good when they can double team a defender. Fleming has similar talent of many players that were strong stout tackles in college that have become standout guards like Nicks,Yanda Osemele,Mankins,Long,Evans. Could he be any worse than Wendell at center with Connolly at guard did last year. But he could likely be way better...

I completely agree with the above. Kline/Wendy/Connolly is the worst interior OL in football.
The only hope for this OL, and therefore for the offense, is if by season's end the starters are
Solder - Cannon - Stork/Connolly - Fleming - Vollmer.