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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by AndyJohnson, Aug 28, 2006.

  1. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    One thing that bothers me on this board is how fast the opinions of players change.

    In 2003 when we may have had the best pass D I have ever seen, this board was in love with Ty Law. He was a consensus as the best CB in the NFL. As people became unhappy with Law the person, all of sudden the posts started up that he wasnt really that good.
    I dont remember a negative word being said about Deion Branch, until recently, and in fact, when Givens was walking he was trashed as not being in Branch's league. Now there are loads of posts saying Branch isnt really that good anyway. (I personally understand this one better because I think all WRs are overrated to begin with)

    Why does this happen? Is it a case of revisionary history, or are there different people whonever spoke in the past all of sudden coming out of the wordwork saying they never thought they were that good to begin with?

    I know its par for the course with any fan base that as soon as a player is gone he never was as good as when he was there, but this board typical leans toward positive, but is honest about players. (Everyone knows my opinions on Ted Johnson and Antowain Smith were at least as negative before they left as after, and many posters are similar to this) Its hard to have integrity in discussion, if in fact, people dont place any value on sticking by what they have said in the past.
     
  2. SeanBruschi54

    SeanBruschi54 In the Starting Line-Up

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    #24 Jersey

    When Law left he was already starting to decline in play.

    I would like to know who has said Branch isn't that good. I think ive seen he's not as good as he thinks and should be paid more like so and so. Never saw posts saying he's a bad player or declining.
     
  3. jczxohn1

    jczxohn1 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."

    Felt guilty and thought I ought to offer a serious response, but after re-reading your comments, I think you're over-reacting. May be a few who change their opinion, but as Sean said, there haven't been that many saying Branch isn't a decent receiver, just isn't worth the money he wants, not to mention his early statements about playing out his contract. The better example is the angst aroused last year when Seymour held out. Players change, too.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2006
  4. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There have been post saying things such as 'he hasnt outplayed his draft slot because he hasnt played a full season without being coddled or caught more than 5 TDs" and that he isnt worth the money of a #1. (Its hard to reconcile being called a draft steal previously as a 2nd with now not being worth #1 money. How can a 2nd be steal if he isnt worth a first?)
    The thread where I am saying he is every bit as good as Boldin has a lot of negative commentary on Branch. Interesting too, because my point is that Boldin is overated, not that Branch is underrated.
     
  5. Murphys95

    Murphys95 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    It's a good question and it's been like that for as long as I can remember. In fact, it makes me think of a game I was at in 1981. The Pats finished 2-14 that year. In this game Grogan was struggling badly in the first half. The crowd at Schaefer began chanting for his backup, "Ca-Van-Augh, Ca-Van-Augh". This went on an on, until finally, the fans got their wish and Matt Cavanaugh came in for Grogan.

    On his very first play Cavanaugh fumbled the snap and turned the ball over. The crowd, almost as if on cue, started chanting, "Grogan, Grogan" - I'll never forget that.

    Sorry I don't have a real answer for you, I'd chalk it up to human nature.
     
  6. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That would be a correct statement if you left out the first line.

    Hey, wait a minute. Since you believe EVERY Patriot OC has sucked, maybe you always have thought he was the best, because he sucked the least?
     
  7. jczxohn1

    jczxohn1 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Was he a steal because he was a #2, or because he came from Louisville and signed a long contract for short money compared to what he would have gotten had he come from a UCLA? IMO, the FO has him pegged about right. AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE, Deion needs to fire his agent and cut a deal.
     
  8. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Branch is our number 1 receiver,,,he has a great chemistry with Brady and knows the offense inside out...no way I want to see him go...but he IS under contrct and he IS the one responsible for this brouhaha...so that leads me to believe that he actually cares more about making incrementally more with another team that is willing to OVERPAY and THAT seems to be his overiding motivation.

    So yeah, I'm disassociating my feelings for him as a Patriot fan and moving on...why is that wrong?
     
  9. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Im not saying that is wrong, Im saying coupling that with revising history by altering your opinion of his ability is wrong.
     
  10. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Well, Andy, considering that I am the one pointing out that Deion hasn't played a full season without being coddled and that he hasn't had a season with more than 5 TDs (both of which are factual statements), I have never called Branch a 2nd round steal.

    I should also point out that I haven't mentioned anything in terms of the draft pick compensation that I would expect the Pats to get in return for Branch. Also, I would like to point out that Draft pick compensation has absolutely NOTHING to do with the position in which the player was drafted.
     
  11. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    It is your opinion that Deion was being coddled. It is not a fact. Deion was held out of the preseason games. That is a fact. Your take/guess on why that happened is your opinion.
     
  12. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Disable Jersey

    I loved my man The Twig in his 1st training camp. He stood out like a star. And he's performed well for the Pats over the years. In contrast, in that same 1st training camp Daniel Graham looked like a bust and I was on his case early in his dropsy career but later changed my opinion of him as a player as he improved. Always liked Law's play. Still do. Woulda liked him back.

    My favorable opinion of The Twig as a player has not changed and will not change when he finally departs. My opinion of The Twig as a person suffered a blow after he lied saying he'd honor his contract and then did not keep his word. The fact that he has not either fired his agent (Watson style) or DIRECTED him to make a constructive counteroffer irritates the piss outa me as a fan of the team. Were he to rectify the situation I'll stop obsessing about his recent conduct. When he misses regular season games and leaves then he, like The Vinitraitor, will be dead to me.
     
  13. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    To answer to the the original question and not be specfic about any one player. I think that too many posters here think in the moment and not the long term.

    If a fringe player does well in one preseason game he becomes the flavor of the week. If a good player has, in their view, a bad game then he's done.

    I don't know if that is a attitude only found on this board because I don't normally go to other teams boards. It is a attitude in the greater Boston area as there are a lot of Red Sox fans.

    Baseball fans in general and Red Sox fans in particular have an attitude that they know more than the manager and front office. After all they did play Little League and Babe Ruth baseball and gained a wealth of knowledge.

    So, they think that they can apply that to a more complex sport such as football. So, you see the Calwell sucks and Corey is washed up threads.
     
  14. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    As a player Branch is a sold number one receiver..I have felt that way from the start of his upswing. I would say he's certainly somewhere between 15-20th on a list of WRs. But I, like many others do NOT think he is anywhere worth the money he is asking for. I think he works well in the Patriot system and with Brady and that may bring out the best in his play. That is why I think if he does go to another team, he may not be close to how he has played here. I might be wrong, but I do think that could happen. As for what he has been doing or not doing, that has certainly changed my opinion of him. That doesn't at all change what he has done on the field at all and what he can do, but this has changed ny opinion of him.
     
  15. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    PRINCIPLE ONE
    All patriot players, living or dead are better than all non-patriot players at the same position.

    PRINCIPLE TWO
    When a patriot player leaves, he leaves part of the skill in his locker.

    PRINCIPLE THREE
    When a patriot leaves, all achievement while playing for the patriots is reduced.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Having said that, Branch was/is a replacement for Troy Brown, a fine slot receiver who played the #1 receiver position. As Brown did, Branch performed exceedingly well for us. To me, Branch always appears frail. Maybe this is even more so after watching Watson this week.

    The question is the market for wide receivers in the league. Is Branch worth much more than Givens or Stallworth in the open market? Does the market really believe that Branch can only produce for Brady? BTW, if this is so, why didn't Terrell and Davis succeed?






     
  16. T-ShirtDynasty

    T-ShirtDynasty Moderator

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    Principle One and Two are explained very easily by the new Tightness Theory. As I understand the Tightness Theory from THEARCHIVES and apply it to explaining your two principles, it goes like this:

    The Patriots uniforms are some of the tightest in the league, and by tight we mean good looking, cool looking, slick logo, emotional colors, etc. When a player looks tighter, the player feels tighter, and that feeling has a profound effect on his psyche, it inspires greater self-confidence and a desire to perform. It's not that the player leaves some of that talent in his locker, it's just that he never recaptures that feeling of supreme tightness when he puts on another uniform. Branch will just never be as tight as he is in a Flying Elvis.

    Principle Three, I have no explanation for.

    I hope this helps.
     
  17. italian pat patriot

    italian pat patriot In the Starting Line-Up

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    #12 Jersey

    i try always to be honest with myself and do not change opinion if the weather change

    this is the reason why i continue to say that players like Mc Ginest, Ted Johnson and Adam Vinatieri will be, for me, always in my mind and i will never forget the best moments in sports they gave me

    personally i do not follows other ideas

    and if i should write that Branch is a good not excellent WR i will say it tomorrow as i said it yesterday

    anyway nice thread - you are right imo
     
  18. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    A good thread...agreed..and I too agree about those Patriots retired or gone to other teams...which is why I would cheer Vinatieri loudly on his return to Gilette.
     
  19. Garbanza

    Garbanza In the Starting Line-Up

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    I will be perfectly blunt here:

    1) Some of the fans here are bandwagoners. Yup, it's true. No, I am not one of them. I've been following this team since I was a young girl - 1977.

    2) Some of these fans are pure "homers." Yup, it's true.

    3) Many of us are SPOILED rotton. Yup, it's true.
     
  20. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    #37 Jersey

    My opinion on Branch changed before the holdout. Prior to last season, Football Outsiders listed both Branch and Givens as top NFL receivers based on their lack of drops.

    In 2004, IIRC, Branch didn't have any drops and Givens had one. So my opinion, based on that and his incredible performance in the 2004 postseason, was high on Branch.

    Last year I thought he had a great season, but came down to earth a bit as teams focused on him and could make him disappear. I still think he's a top NFL receiver, though my opinion isn't as high as it was last year, based on his play.

    My opinion has changed, but not because of the holdout.

    If he goes elsewhere, I won't think less of him, but I will think of him less.
     

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