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Question: Re: Pass protection after SB loss


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Krugman

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I admit to being childish and still not watching my DVR recording of the SB.Has anyone observed any particular breakdown in that game or was it the Giants d-line (a good one I beleive)having an oustanding game?Lastly,if there was some breakdown,any ideas on how to fix this gap before some of the teams with the right personnel exploit it? As per usual,I look to the more knowledgeable folks on this board on some insight re this.For the record,I guess thats most of you...:).
 
Re: Question:Re pass protection after SB loss:

There was an excellent breakdown thread up here a few months ago where a poster (I can't remember who, but it is a regular) broke down each play and the breakdowns in protection. If anyone has a link to the thread, it will help you the best.
 
Re: Question:Re pass protection after SB loss:

The only breakdown was our fat o-lineman against their streamlined and fast d-line.
 
I admit to being childish and still not watching my DVR recording of the SB.Has anyone observed any particular breakdown in that game or was it the Giants d-line (a good one I beleive)having an oustanding game?Lastly,if there was some breakdown,any ideas on how to fix this gap before some of the teams with the right personnel exploit it? As per usual,I look to the more knowledgeable folks on this board on some insight re this.For the record,I guess thats most of you...:).

I don't think it is childish to not want to rewatch that game. It was awful and I still get a sick feeling in my stomach when I think about it.

IMHO, the Giants gameplan was what Tony Kornheiser described during the Ravens game. "If you want to beat the Pats, you have to be willing to lose 100-0 against them. Blitz as much as you can and hope you get to Brady before he can get the ball out."

And THAT is exactly what the Giants did.
 
I think the key was that they were able to rush the interior of our line (usually our strength), which prevented Brady's bread and butter, stepping up straight into the middle of the pocket and delivering.

A counter to this could have been more rollout or similar plays, but with Brady's ankle, I don't think that was really an option.

I also think that the Giants played 100% "to the death" hardcore for three quarters and just outworked our OL. There was a noticeable difference in the effectiveness of the pass rush in the 4th quarter, when the Giants got tired and the Pats were finally able to put together a good drive.

If the game was five quarters, we're 19-0, but alas, was not to be.
 
We didn't run the ball in the second half. Simple as that.
 
No. No it isn't.

Agreed. I would even say our second half was better overall than our first half offensively. Felt that way anyway, until the end...
 
Here is the write-up that Albert Breer did for the Dallas Morning News on what the Giants did defensively. Bottom line is though they were able to get 4 of their sacks using 4 man pressure. 4-man pressure being productive means that you have a max of 5 possible receivers and 7 defenders in coverage. It's just a numbers game at that point.

 There are many layers to the affect the Giants defensive line had on Sunday's game. But start with perhaps the most impactful component - The ability to handle Kevin Faulk. All year, and really in the past, Faulk has been invaluable as a checkdown option, and a way to deal with a strong pass-rush or press coverage on the perimeter. The Giants' pass rush, first and foremost, forced the Patriots to keep Faulk into block quite a bit. And from there, they covered him well (even if he had seven catches). One way of doing it was sending a linebacker up the middle. Faulk would pick the blitz, and then the 'backer (often Antonio Pierce) wouldn't let him peel off to where Tom Brady could get him the ball. When the Giants did let Faulk release, there was often a defensive back, and not a linebacker, waiting for him. The result? By taking away an option underneath through coverage, the rush got an extra split-second to get there. The bottom line is that the Giants wouldn't let Faulk kill them, the way he did the Jaguars and Chargers, and that was debilitating for the struggling pass protection.

 One more thing on Faulk, and Wes Welker, that needs to be pointed out was how well the Giants handled the Patriots screen game, usually their antidote for a strong pass rush. The credit here has to go to the defensive backs. Late in the first half, the Patriots started running jailbreak screens - where a receiver drops behind the line and slips underneath blocking wideouts and linemen releasing to the flat - to slow the Giants pressure. On the first one, the Patriots converted a third-and-13 with Donte' Stallworth navigating through blocking for 18 yards. Later in the drive, Welker picked up 9 yards on another one. And that was that. On the Patriots' first drive of the third quarter, Corey Webster and Aaron Ross aggressively shed blocks from Randy Moss and Jabar Gaffney to drop Welker for a 2-yard loss. Then, on the final play of the third quarter, defensive linemen quickly recognized another one coming, and hustled to the flat in pursuit. That cut off angles for Stallworth, who was held to 9 yards on a third-and-15. To me, that's a sign of good coaching. Scheme-wise, not much had changed. But the message had been hammered home on how to approach these plays (corners taking blocks head on and linemen pursuing), and clearly got through. In turn, a major vehicle for slowing the pass rush, the screen game in general, was rendered a non-factor.

 Another key - and Steve Spagnuolo said this to me by the team bus - was the defense's ability to disguise its rush. It's easy to see what a good job they did. The team's first sack of the game is a good example. On the play, a second-and-10 from the Patriot 30, Kawika Mitchell cheated up to the line. At the snap, he turned his hips, as if to drop into coverage. The protection adjusted, with Faulk going to pick up blitzing corner Aaron Ross, coming hard off the edge. And the second Faulk went, Mitchell sprinted at Brady on a free rush, blasting the quarterback and setting up another sack on third-and-17. And it wasn't just disguising the rush, but also the coverage that created sacks. Go to the second-and-10 on the Patriots' last gasp series with seconds left. There, safety Gibril Wilson starts out in the box, as if he's going to cover underneath, with Randy Moss and Corey Webster alone to the offensive left. But just before the snap, Wilson bailed into deep half coverage, giving Webster over-the-top help. So what Brady saw at the line changed at the snap and it looked like that by the time he adjusted his pre-snap read, Jay Alford was there to usher him to the turf.

 Seems to me like the Tech alum Welker would've been MVP if the Patriots had won the Super Bowl. But I'll say this: The Giants did not do a bad job on him. With the exception of a couple of third-quarter plays (15- and 19-yarders), New York was able to get him to the turf quickly after the catch, and hit him constantly. That's the key with Welker, as good as he is after the catch and in the open field in general. The Patriots did things to free him, motioning him to stack-release (underneath another receiver), calling route combinations that made it tough to track him off the line, and motioning him away from slot corner Aaron Ross. But the truth is, he could've done more damage, had the Giants not played good, disciplined ball against him. And of course, you have to credit Webster, who I honestly felt was right up there with Justin Tuck and Eli Manning for MVP, for the job he did on Randy Moss.

 Another unsung hero on defense for the Giants had to be defensive tackle Barry Cofield. His ability to occupy blockers helped free Tuck for one-on-ones on Logan Mankins, the Patriots' steady All-Pro guard who's one of the best in the game, but was absolutely undressed by Tuck's athleticism. On both the sacks, Cofield lined up shading center Dan Koppen and quickly engaged him, then used an outside move to get to guard Stephen Neal. So out there on the left edge, you had Osi Umenyiora on Matt Light (a relative wash of a matchup), and Tuck on Mankins. Obviously, the Giants knew that the Patriots hadn't seen many inside rushers - Tuck lined up as a 3-technique - with this guy's speed. And it was smart to put him on the weak-side, and work to create these one-on-ones.
 
Looking at the game again it seems to me that the offensive line was really just unprepared for what the Giants did. Whether it was the blitz or only rushing four the Patriot o-line looked confused. The number of people coming at Brady untouched was pretty scary. I think that and the almost total abandonment of the run really made the line look bad. Having said that, I think the year in total showed everyone the line is indeed rather talented and that the Super Bowl performance was more of an aberration than anything else.
 
No. No it isn't.

Yes. Yes it is. The giants players were cramping up on the sidelines. They were rushing four every play and blitzing some.

The lack of a running game allowed them to do this. Also, against a spent defense (cramping), allowing the Oline to dish out punishment instead of taking it would have left them spent and revitalized our line.

Funny how getting to pound instead of being pounded recharges the batteries. Ask any olineman, I bet they'll agree.
 
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Here is the write-up that Albert Breer did for the Dallas Morning News on what the Giants did defensively. Bottom line is though they were able to get 4 of their sacks using 4 man pressure. 4-man pressure being productive means that you have a max of 5 possible receivers and 7 defenders in coverage. It's just a numbers game at that point.

In other words, we were outcoached and outplayed.
 
Thanks to all for your replies,interesting.
 
We didn't run the ball in the second half. Simple as that.

It is hard to argue that it was the lack of running. If you look at each drive, you really can't argue it.

On the Pats first drive, their last set of downs started with a Maroney run for no gain on first down (Maroney three times for 5 yards on that drive with only one run picking up positive yards). The drive was also almost ended earlier in the drive partly because Maroney ran for -2 yards on first down. Brady was 9 of 10 passing in that drive. Running the ball helped to stall the drive. Not just once, but twice (once was saved by an illegal substitution call against the Giants).

On the second drive, a Matt Light false start on second down (making it a 2nd and 15 and forcing the Pats to throw) stalled the drive where the Pats ran 2 of the eight plays. On that drive, Brady was able to pass for 16, 19, and 9 yards. Brady was sacked on a third and long on this drive, but that was helped set up with the false start. The Pats might have scored on this drive, but Belichick decided to go for a TD on 4th and 13 on the 31 yard line rather than try to kick the field goal.

You might be able to argue about the next drive since they went 4 and out. Brady was 2 for 2 on that drive.

On the fifth drive, the Pats scored while only running once on 12 plays. This drive had the lowest run to pass percentage of any drive the Pats had in the second half that went more than four plays. Brady was 9 for 11 on that drive.

On the last drive, they couldn't run the ball. You can criticize the play calling, but it wasn't because they didn't run the ball.

If we had a better running game in that game, it definitely would have helped. But I don't see not running the ball in the second half being the reason the Pats offense struggled since Brady had a better second half than first. Penalties and poor running by Maroney played into drives stalling. Play calling has nothing to do with mental breakdowns like false starts. That is 100% on the player.

Besides, if you take away the two goalline runs by Maroney (he ran two more times on the Giants one yard line to score the first TD), he ran exactly twice on our two scoring drives with one run on each TD drive. I take out the goalline runs because you can't penalize the Pats for not using Maroney in goalline situations in the second half when they only had one and they score the TD.
 
It is hard to argue that it was the lack of running. If you look at each drive, you really can't argue it.

On the Pats first drive, their last set of downs started with a Maroney run for no gain on first down (Maroney three times for 5 yards on that drive with only one run picking up positive yards). The drive was also almost ended earlier in the drive partly because Maroney ran for -2 yards on first down. Brady was 9 of 10 passing in that drive. Running the ball helped to stall the drive. Not just once, but twice (once was saved by an illegal substitution call against the Giants).

On the second drive, a Matt Light false start on second down (making it a 2nd and 15 and forcing the Pats to throw) stalled the drive where the Pats ran 2 of the eight plays. On that drive, Brady was able to pass for 16, 19, and 9 yards. Brady was sacked on a third and long on this drive, but that was helped set up with the false start. The Pats might have scored on this drive, but Belichick decided to go for a TD on 4th and 13 on the 31 yard line rather than try to kick the field goal.

You might be able to argue about the next drive since they went 4 and out. Brady was 2 for 2 on that drive.

On the fifth drive, the Pats scored while only running once on 12 plays. This drive had the lowest run to pass percentage of any drive the Pats had in the second half that went more than four plays. Brady was 9 for 11 on that drive.

On the last drive, they couldn't run the ball. You can criticize the play calling, but it wasn't because they didn't run the ball.

If we had a better running game in that game, it definitely would have helped. But I don't see not running the ball in the second half being the reason the Pats offense struggled since Brady had a better second half than first. Penalties and poor running by Maroney played into drives stalling. Play calling has nothing to do with mental breakdowns like false starts. That is 100% on the player.

Besides, if you take away the two goalline runs by Maroney (he ran two more times on the Giants one yard line to score the first TD), he ran exactly twice on our two scoring drives with one run on each TD drive. I take out the goalline runs because you can't penalize the Pats for not using Maroney in goalline situations in the second half when they only had one and they score the TD.

I wasn't arguing specifically that running the ball was better than short passes (which is all we had time for).

It might have been, we weren't moving the ball otherwise, but...

It would have made the pass rush hesitate. This is why Brady was in danger, no hesitation, full speed rush every play.

It would have allowed our Olinemen to dish out punishment. Even though they rotated every lineman and LB they could, they were cramping up and exhausted. They would have started fading in a 70 minute game, but they lasted. Getting pancacked a couple times every set of downs would have finished off a couple of those guys.

And Olinemen like to hit. Nobody likes to stand there for 60 minutes getting pummeled.

Any defense that knows what you're going to do (pass) can stop you.
 
I wasn't arguing specifically that running the ball was better than short passes (which is all we had time for).

It might have been, we weren't moving the ball otherwise, but...

It would have made the pass rush hesitate. This is why Brady was in danger, no hesitation, full speed rush every play.

It would have allowed our Olinemen to dish out punishment. Even though they rotated every lineman and LB they could, they were cramping up and exhausted. They would have started fading in a 70 minute game, but they lasted. Getting pancacked a couple times every set of downs would have finished off a couple of those guys.

And Olinemen like to hit. Nobody likes to stand there for 60 minutes getting pummeled.

Any defense that knows what you're going to do (pass) can stop you.

Without Neal, running was made much more difficult.
 
neal is a pulling gaurd who back the strong side runs . he is a starter and his back up came in it took that over power left run . with constant breaking in line i have no idea what one want maroney to do. every time he got the ball their was a defender on him.he had no where to go.
 
Without Neal, running was made much more difficult.

Not as difficult as stopping the best 4 man pass rush in the game, plus blitzers, when they knew you were passing every down.

I don't recall John Hannah leading the way for Pokey Antowain in 2001.

How many of those Olinemen wil make the hall of fame? Didn't stop us from establishing the run and keeping the other team off balance.
 
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