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question of the day....do we belong to government?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by IllegalContact, Sep 5, 2012.

  1. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Pro Bowl Player

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  2. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Would have liked to see more than the 17 seconds than someone wants you to see.. so a more informed decision could be made..
     
  3. PatsFanSince74

    PatsFanSince74 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They must be churning this stuff out at breakneck speed at the DNC, as "government is the only thing that we all belong to" is not a principle on which this country was founded. They must have left the editing to someone who never attended an Elementary School Civics Class let alone studied or considered Constitutional Law.

    In the United States, Government belongs to us; we don't belong to the Government.

    The Declaration of Independence makes it clear that the statement could have read "government is the only thing that belongs to all of us."

    Government, as framed in our Constitution is a series of Legislative, Executive and Judicial entities that "We, the People" empower to act on our behalf. "It" is not "us," but rather a creation of "us."

    Jeffersonian Democracy is based on the principle that Government derives its "just power" from "the consent of the governed." Government in the US, then, is from our very founding, viewed as an entity that is separate from but totally dependent on the will of the governed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2012
  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, it's true, we all belong to the government, in the same sense that people belong to a church. As citizens we have rights. Of course, the right is hearing it as, "We are all owned by the government," but the clip makes clear they are talking about the way we belong to a church or club. A club doesn't own us, but we may well belong to a club.
     
  5. PatsFanSince74

    PatsFanSince74 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No. I'm as left as anyone on this board, but the fundamental principle of Jeffersonian Democracy is that government is derived from the consent of a governed populace.

    As citizens, we belong to the community that comes together in elections to empower our Government, but we do not belong to the Government any more than Roman Catholics belong to the College of Cardinals that elects the Pope. Lay Catholics belong to the Church, but they do not belong to its Government.

    In the case of our democracy, authority is derived from the people. In the case of the Church, authority is derived from God. However, in both cases, those who comprise the membership of each do not belong to the Government of either, unless elected or appointed thereto.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2012
  6. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course in most church's the leader dictates to the faithful and they are expected to obey without question. Religion is based on faith, so yeah libs vie government like a religion with them as the clergy who will be obeyed.
     
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, you're right. Liberals favor the rule of law.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2012
  8. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why do liberals believe that a person who climbs out of bed every morning before the sun comes up for fifty years, works his ass off and makes millions of dollars should be forced to give his hard earned money to some wino who lives under a bridge?

    Whats Mine Is Mine Sayeth The Scriptures

    The Bible says "(Be Nice Harry) The Lazy For They Shall Receive #### From The Worker"
     
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  9. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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  10. patsfan13

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    No they view the government as their secular religion. They don't view them selves as independent free people bu t as wards of the state whose legitimacy is contingent on the approval of the state.
     
  11. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Harry, I always thought you knew some of those people who live under bridges (and I do not mean that in a negative way). They are usually messed up people, quite often vets and people who once worked, but blew their money on drugs and booze. Do you really think we should just let them starve? Or would you rather pay for more jails?
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2012
  12. khayos

    khayos In the Starting Line-Up

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    I can leave a church.
     
  13. PatsFanSince74

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  14. patsfan13

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    Hey Patters you need to walk back your opinion on the government owning us, your pope is backtracking on the vid at his conclave:

    DNC video: “Government is the only thing that we all belong to”; Update: Not our video, says Obama campaign « Hot Air



    So now in addition to their economic policies they can't even take responsibility for vids at their own coronation event. :eek: :singing: :D
     
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I know. I don't agree with them. I think it's entirely defensible. The Republicans are being snippy. It's all they can do to try to get any attention during the convention. The Dems did the same thing during the Republican convention, and made some good traction on Chris Christie's self serving speech and Clint Eastwood's weird speech. I think Republicans are trying to raise these little issue as a way of distracting people from that wonderful debate clip where Romney clearly expresses strong support for Roe v. Wade and comes off looking pretty bad. These are little mistakes by the Dems so far, comparable to the idiot Republican delegates who threw peanut and a racist remark to a CNN cameraman. So far, the Dems haven't made any big mistakes, but there are still two more nights.
     
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You're right. You can't (easily) leave your government. What's your point? My point is that we are all members of our government, just as the expression "we belong to a church" means "we are members of the church."
     
  17. PatsFanSince74

    PatsFanSince74 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Obama is a scholar of constitutional law. As such, he, or someone close to him, quickly recognized that the statement "Government is the only thing that we all belong to" was contrary to the principles of Jeffersonian Democracy and directly in contradiction to the Preamble to the Constitution.

    Of course they disowned it. They're not morons.

    Government is derived from the consent of the Governed. It belongs to us. We don't belong to it. Fifth Grade Civics. Constitutional Law 101. End of discussion.

    "We the people" frame and empower Legislative, Executive and Judicial branches of the government to assure that we can have a "more perfect union, etc."

    Somebody working for or at the behest of the DNC created a video and some marginally qualified DNC editor who hadn't attended an Elementary School Civics Class let alone a course in Constitutional Law viewed it and said, "Sounds OK to me." Of course, it wasn't OK and the smart folks in the Obama campaign have done the right thing and disowned it.

    We have a lot more important things to discuss as a nation than to be wasting our time critiquing (or, God Forbid, defending) some nincompoop's misinformed view of our Constitution in a 17 second video.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2012
  18. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Church is voluntary in this country government is coercive if you belong it it.

    Why would you support a coercive view of government institution?
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2012
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think the problem is simply that "belong" has more than one meaning. Wisely, the Republicans are interpreting it as meaning "owned," while it was clearly intended (based on the analogy to churches and clubs) to mean "are members of." I think it could have been defended in that way, but maybe they thought it was simply easier to disown it.
     
  20. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    I think whenever you(anyone) have to go back and explain something you say so that people get it you misspoke. And as you're explaining it you tend to backtrack, come across as defensive and insincere.
    The government "owning us all" is a clumsy notion at best. I think it's a loser in fact. The Dems better drop that and fast.
     

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