Question for Patriots Fans - Please Help me Understand

[MiChargers]

I think the Refs are biased for the Colts more because of other games than the Pats/Colts game.

Did you by chance witness the Colts/Steelers game in the Playoffs in 2005? The officiating was even worse then both the Pats/Colts 2006 AFC Championship, and Pats/Colts 2007 Regular season.

The over turn of the Troy Palamalu Interception was the biggest BS call I have ever seen. That Int ended the game. There was no way in freaking hell any sane person would not call that a Pick and Fumble. But it was over turned and the Colts got a second life, but they were so pathetic that 2 or 3 Phantom PI's and a complete gift overturn were not enough.

Worst officiated game of the Regular season in 2007, IMHO was Jags vs Colts. Jag fans must have felt violated after that game.

The whole spygate issue is the league and Media taking at shot at the top dog. I dont think thats a conspiracy, its just the way a league that is supposed to be about parity reacts to a team that has broken away from the rest of the pack.

And that's the point. EVERY team (and their fans) have those games! I can tell you about games that SD was robbed due to crummy officiating. It has nothing to do with the Colts or the Pats. So, the original poster was asking why do Pats fans constantly bring this stuff up? Isnt it time to let things go? Be happy, you're team is having a great year.

 

[FootballFan85]

In my thirty odd years of watching football, I have never seen a QB keep the ball out from his body at the full length of extension from which he ended the forward motion of the fake pump. Not once. Look at the play with Brady and the Raiders. Not even a millisecond passes between the end of the throwing motion (which, granted, is pointing toward the ground at that point), and the actual hit which causes the fumble. At no point is the ball stationary waiting like a dead duck for someone to grab it.

Im not saying any QB would ever do that. Heres the rule:

NFL Rule 3, Section 21, Article 2, Note 2: "When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble.

The point is Brady showed no sign of trying to tuck the ball back into his body. And his arm was in a completely down position where a QB would not uncommonly hold a ball looking for receivers. It was not still in the process of stopping his forward motion or bringing the ball in. The rule should not have applied to that situation. Im sure you can all find the video. Brady stops his throwing motion and brings the ball down right to set with his other hand, which opens up beside the ball. Its not hard to see.

 

[KCSVEN]

fans outside your city simply dont agree for the most part. Watch the video. If thats not a fumble then not much is. The rule was misused and it was unfortunate.

This is where people lose me on the tuck rule EVERY time. The Patriots were screwed on that play and thank God for Adam hitting that field goal because it should have been 15 yards closer, it's even likely the Pats may have scored a touchdown and avoided OT. That BLOW TO THE HEAD was one of the more blatant Blows to the head of a QB I've EVER seen yet was NOT called. Besides the fact that EVERY KNOWLEDGEABLE person has said the interpretation of the rule was CORRECT, so IF you wonder why you "made a mistake" about bringing it up, its pure ignorance that get people upset, you mention "watch the replay" yet IGNORE the blatant no call because it doesn't fit your argument. On that play 1 call was right and 1 was wrong, if Adam missed that field goal that would be 2 games in Patriot history the Raiders would've been handed a playoff game by the refs. Ignorance is irritating.

 

[MiChargers]

I have no problem with them calling any penalty if it's legitimate. But the point I made was that the call against MOss was completely bogus.

Agreed. But doesnt that happen to every team in nearly every game? I'm willing to be Moss has received a few calls in his favor this year too. No?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Ive been reading this board all season (amazing board by the way, probably one of the most active I've ever seen)

Im not a Pats fan, Im a Minnesota fan, and I just dont understand some of the behaviour around here.

I constantly read posts by Pats fans who seem to honestly believe that the NFL and the game officials are actually out to get them! These people aren't kidding, theyre sincere, and its a fairly common view.

I mean honestly? Every team gets bad calls against them and every team gets bad calls in their favour. Its human nature to only remember the bad ones that go against you, just like in poker where you only remember all the times you got beat by some random fluke but never remember when a miracle card falls in your favour.

How is it that any fan in any city, especially one whose team is UNDEFEATED can actually be so ignorant as to think the league and its officials hold a vendetta against them?

I consistantly see how much you guys love to call fans in other cities "whiners". "The Colts are the biggest whiners", "The Steelers are the biggest whiners", etc, yes so many of you sit here and complain about how bad the NFL treats you, how biased the refs are, etc.

Can someone please explain to me how any serious sports fan with a drop of a clue can actually think their team is being targeted by league officials and refs? Id love to understand.

Do you actually believe the refs are out to get you? Do you actually believe the Commissioner is against you? Do you actually believe that GM from the Colts has the power to mold the league to his liking so his team could beat you? Do you actually believe that the NFL intentionally lets other teams off on things and nails the patriots just for kicks?

You guys are on pace for a perfect season and you STILL complain and make conspiracy theories. SHould that not make YOU the biggest whiners? I cant even imagine what this place would sound like if the Pats lost a game.

(oh and dont use "bullcrap Offensive PI on Moss". Its been happening his WHOLE career. Minnesota fans remember it well. The fact of the matter is, he should know by now whats going to happen if he puts his hands on a dback. Its bull**** yes, but its not new)

(oh and sorry to the Pats fans around here who actually write with their brains, I dont mean to group you in with the crazies)

I can see where you're coming from, honestly. Every time that I've seen a fanbase start *****ing about calls, I've rolled my eyes. I really, honestly, do believe that there is a possibility that it's happening here though. While acknowledging that there's no real known precedent for it, I'm also stating that there isn't any real precedent for what's happened this year either.

I've always believed that, for any commissioner, the potential fallout of attempts at fixing would far outweigh any benefits that you could gain, so that's why it didn't happen. What about this year, though? Thanks in large part to Goodell's reaction to Spygate, the bulk of the football fans in the country have branded the Patriots cheaters, even though they're far from it. At the same time, Goodell, in doling out the punishment, proved that he's extraordinarily image-conscious, even to a fault.

The end result? Goodell doesn't want the Patriots to go undefeated or win the Super Bowl, and justifiably so. Would he attempt to have games fixed to ensure that this didn't happen? Probably not, I'll admit. If there wasn't on-the-field evidence to suggest that something ludicrous is up, then it all would have stopped with a couple conspiracy theorist nutjobs.

Then the Colts game happened. The Patriots are an extremely disciplined team (they won the Ravens game, for example, purely on discipline), yet on that day they just so happened to get penalized for ~150 yards, setting a franchise record. To understand how astounding that is, you have to realize how badly MOST of the Patriots teams of the past have sucked. For THIS team to set that record when they just so happened to be playing the Colts (Good vs. Evil, says Easterbrook), in a late game that was shown across the country, in a battle of the unbeatens.... it just lines up a little too well. It's still probably nothing, but you have to be able to see where a bit of doubt creeps in.

Goodell set himself up terribly by hanging the Pats out to dry, and only made it worse by destroying the tapes so that they wouldn't get leaked to Fox through his wife again (thus setting up claims that they had to destroy the tapes because they were so damning). He unfairly branded the Patriots as cheaters, in the season where they'll likely go 19-0. The irony of that would be a bit of a black mark on the league; though, as a Pats fan, I don't care. Goodell made his bed, he can lie in it. It's not quite as crazy as normal, though, to read a little more into it.

Also, journalist hacks haven't helped at all. From Wilbon openly condoning cheap shots on Brady to endless ******s calling for asterisks on Super Bowls that were won when the method of taping used was still legal, all the way to misquoting Belichick to say that a couple of AFC East foes weren't good enough to make his team, the mindless, semi-educated, wannabe-athlete masses have been piling on all year, and Pats fans are tired of it and pissed off. Think of the fallout from the whole cruise situation from a couple of years back with the Vikes, and how it got beaten into the ground. This was like that times 50 (I followed the Vikings closely at the time, since I'm friends with members of Culpepper's family), and it stemmed from something just about as trivial (leave any assumptions aside and look at what the videos really did and what they were really used for. It's a damn joke).

Anyways, I hope that that helps you make a little more sense of why the people here are the way they are. Some certainly take it way overboard, but this is pretty much the perfect storm for fix theories. If a commissioner was ever going to want to see a team lose, it would be now, and the Colts game was just a little too glaring for some people.

 

[Ethan 55]

Sure
The tuck rule is a rule that means if the QB is attempting to STOP their passing motion and bring the ball back to keep the ball, that if the ball is knocked out its not a fumble.

It DOESNT mean that a QB can pump the ball, bring it back in and then lose it and not be a fumble.

In that Oakland game, Brady does his pump, but then nbrings the ball down and even sets his other hand in front and THEN the ball is knocked out from behind. Sorry if I dont see that as in the process of stopping the passing motion. Most people outside NE dont either.

This thread has become a waste now though. I knew I shouldntve brought this up.

The whole point of the rule is to eliminate the refs trying to guess what the QB was going to do. So if the ball is in the process of moving forward, even slowly, it's an incomplete pass. Whether you've got one, two, or ten hands on the ball makes no difference. (2-handed shovel passes have happened. )It's all about the forward motion of the arm.

Now, common sense does tell you he wasn't going to throw that ball. It's plain as day. However, the rule exists like that because there are other cases where it's close enough that the ref would be left guessing as to whether the intent was to pump fake or to throw it. So to remove that aspect, the rule is simple. If the ball has any forward motion at all, it's an incomplete pass. Brady had touched it with his second hand, but the forward motion hadn't been stopped yet when it was knocked out.

After the first replay I saw, I was shouting at the TV "Testaverde play! Testaverde play!" while my roommate wondered what the hell I was talking about.

On the original topic, I don't think it's anything unusual. Look at a Steelers or Jets site for example and see if they're not saying the league wants the Patriots to win and the refs always give them all the calls. Conspiracy theories like that are excuses for people who either don't understand circumstantial happenings or have a persecution complex.

 

[upstater1]

Im not saying any QB would ever do that. Heres the rule:

NFL Rule 3, Section 21, Article 2, Note 2: "When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble.

The point is Brady showed no sign of trying to tuck the ball back into his body. And his arm was in a completely down position. It was not still in the process of stopping his forward motion or bringing the ball in. The rule should not have applied to that situation. Im sure you can all find the video. Brady stops his throwing motion and brings the ball down right to set with his other hand, which opens up beside the ball. Its not hard to see.

That's not the complete rule. I know that for a fact.

Check out this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8jHdqO2QmM

The guy who posted it inadvertently shows the difference between a fumble and a non-fumble per the tuck rule. In the Dallas game, Brady does not tuck it, but he clearly re****s it. In the Oakland game, he never re****ed it.

 

[upstater1]

Agreed. But doesnt that happen to every team in nearly every game? I'm willing to be Moss has received a few calls in his favor this year too. No?

You mean on OPI?

Or on PI?

He had one PI called on his defender in the Colts game, I believe, and it was PI but of the ticky-tack variety. He also caught the ball.

I'm not saying the Patriots are never beneficiaries, but I do have a problem with specifically targetting players.

 

[FootballFan85]

I can see where you're coming from, honestly. Every time that I've seen a fanbase start *****ing about calls, I've rolled my eyes. I really, honestly, do believe that there is a possibility that it's happening here though. While acknowledging that there's no real known precedent for it, I'm also stating that there isn't any real precedent for what's happened this year either.

I've always believed that, for any commissioner, the potential fallout of attempts at fixing would far outweigh any benefits that you could gain, so that's why it didn't happen. What about this year, though? Thanks in large part to Goodell's reaction to Spygate, the bulk of the football fans in the country have branded the Patriots cheaters, even though they're far from it. At the same time, Goodell, in doling out the punishment, proved that he's extraordinarily image-conscious, even to a fault.

The end result? Goodell doesn't want the Patriots to go undefeated or win the Super Bowl, and justifiably so. Would he attempt to have games fixed to ensure that this didn't happen? Probably not, I'll admit. If there wasn't on-the-field evidence to suggest that something ludicrous is up, then it all would have stopped with a couple conspiracy theorist nutjobs.

Then the Colts game happened. The Patriots are an extremely disciplined team (they won the Ravens game, for example, purely on discipline), yet on that day they just so happened to get penalized for ~150 yards, setting a franchise record. To understand how astounding that is, you have to realize how badly MOST of the Patriots teams of the past have sucked. For THIS team to set that record when they just so happened to be playing the Colts (Good vs. Evil, says Easterbrook), in a late game that was shown across the country, in a battle of the unbeatens.... it just lines up a little too well. It's still probably nothing, but you have to be able to see where a bit of doubt creeps in.

Goodell set himself up terribly by hanging the Pats out to dry, and only made it worse by destroying the tapes so that they wouldn't get leaked to Fox through his wife again (thus setting up claims that they had to destroy the tapes because they were so damning). He unfairly branded the Patriots as cheaters, in the season where they'll likely go 19-0. The irony of that would be a bit of a black mark on the league; though, as a Pats fan, I don't care. Goodell made his bed, he can lie in it. It's not quite as crazy as normal, though, to read a little more into it.

Also, journalist hacks haven't helped at all. From Wilbon openly condoning cheap shots on Brady to endless ******s calling for asterisks on Super Bowls that were won when the method of taping used was still legal, all the way to misquoting Belichick to say that a couple of AFC East foes weren't good enough to make his team, the mindless, semi-educated, wannabe-athlete masses have been piling on all year, and Pats fans are tired of it and pissed off. Think of the fallout from the whole cruise situation from a couple of years back with the Vikes, and how it got beaten into the ground. This was like that times 50 (I followed the Vikings closely at the time, since I'm friends with members of Culpepper's family), and it stemmed from something just about as trivial (leave any assumptions aside and look at what the videos really did and what they were really used for. It's a damn joke).

Anyways, I hope that that helps you make a little more sense of why the people here are the way they are. Some certainly take it way overboard, but this is pretty much the perfect storm for fix theories. If a commissioner was ever going to want to see a team lose, it would be now, and the Colts game was just a little too glaring for some people.

Great reply.

I still question though why if the refs or anyone else were actively trying to stop the Pats they didnt just go the one extra step in any one of the close games. If those games were in fact close because the refs were hindering the pats, why did the refs stop hindering them just in time for the Pats to win? It logically doesnt make sense. It would be like a team getting to the redzone down by 1 late in a game and then just kneel and run the clock. If your goal is to stop the Pats through officiating, then why stop up just short of completeing your goal?

 

[speed]

re****.... testing.

 

[Calhoun44]

FF 85,
You seem like you are honestly trying to be open-minded and fair here. So, tell us what your take is on Spygate? Did the punishment fit the crime? Are others being equally punished?

 

[Fixit]

He had one PI called on his defender in the Colts game, I believe, and it was PI but of the ticky-tack variety. He also caught the ball.

Didn't call the helmet-to-helmet spear on Sanders, though. So the one time in that game Moss gets a call is on one where he made the catch anyway.

 

[FootballFan85]

FF 85,
You seem like you are honestly trying to be open-minded and fair here. So, tell us what your take is on Spygate? Did the punishment fit the crime? Are others being equally punished?

Sure thing.

Firstly let me state openly, Im not a big fan of Bill Bellichek. As a coach is he the best? Undoubtedly. No question. As a guy, is he a little sour and maybe a bit of an ass? Yes. As such, while Id love him to coach my team, I dont know if Id want to have a beer with him.
Now moving on..

I think the big factors were this:
1) He broke a rule that was clearly forbidden by the NFL. No shooting from the other teams sidelines.
2) He was a repeat offender whod already been warned.
3) And this one I think is big, he comes off as a very arrogant kind of guy in his behavior. Should he be? Sure why not hes an amazing coach. But I think his overall attitude might have made it seem like by repeating a previously warned offense, he was saying "Im BB, Im the greatest, Il ldo what I want"
Now #3 is complete speculation and probably SHOULDNT have factored into the decision if it did.

Now for the punishment. Fine Bellichick or fine the team, not both. The taking of the draft pick was WAY over the top. Too much, not necessary.

As for enforcing fairly, before I can say that I would need to know if there is a rule on the book that forbids Mangini shooting from where he was. There IS a rule saying stay away from the other teams sidelines, so BB was guilty.
If Mangini was guilty of violating a rule on the book, that someone can show me (I dont want homerism here I want objectivity), then he should get it WORSE than BB.
But Id need to see tha rule.

Do I think Mangini is a hyporcite? Yes. If hes taping with permission no problem, but if he actually didnt ask the Pats or was asked not to, and did it anyways, broken rule or not hes an ass.

However, does anyone else agree with me that it was a little dumb of BB to throw a guy with a giant camera on Manginis sideline, knowing he was breaking a rule but more importantly KNOWING Mangini knew he was going to do it? Seems like he was asking to get called out.
And against the Jets? Yeesh. You could play Madden 08 and get as good of a scouting report on that team as video taping the bums would give you.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

Remember, just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't watching me!

 

[scott c]

Ive been reading this board all season (amazing board by the way, probably one of the most active I've ever seen)

Im not a Pats fan, Im a Minnesota fan, and I just dont understand some of the behaviour around here.

I constantly read posts by Pats fans who seem to honestly believe that the NFL and the game officials are actually out to get them! These people aren't kidding, theyre sincere, and its a fairly common view.

I mean honestly? Every team gets bad calls against them and every team gets bad calls in their favour. Its human nature to only remember the bad ones that go against you, just like in poker where you only remember all the times you got beat by some random fluke but never remember when a miracle card falls in your favour.

How is it that any fan in any city, especially one whose team is UNDEFEATED can actually be so ignorant as to think the league and its officials hold a vendetta against them?

I consistantly see how much you guys love to call fans in other cities "whiners". "The Colts are the biggest whiners", "The Steelers are the biggest whiners", etc, yes so many of you sit here and complain about how bad the NFL treats you, how biased the refs are, etc.

Can someone please explain to me how any serious sports fan with a drop of a clue can actually think their team is being targeted by league officials and refs? Id love to understand.

Do you actually believe the refs are out to get you? Do you actually believe the Commissioner is against you? Do you actually believe that GM from the Colts has the power to mold the league to his liking so his team could beat you? Do you actually believe that the NFL intentionally lets other teams off on things and nails the patriots just for kicks?

You guys are on pace for a perfect season and you STILL complain and make conspiracy theories. SHould that not make YOU the biggest whiners? I cant even imagine what this place would sound like if the Pats lost a game.

(oh and dont use "bullcrap Offensive PI on Moss". Its been happening his WHOLE career. Minnesota fans remember it well. The fact of the matter is, he should know by now whats going to happen if he puts his hands on a dback. Its bull**** yes, but its not new)

(oh and sorry to the Pats fans around here who actually write with their brains, I dont mean to group you in with the crazies)

You have to remember,we have almost 10,000 members alone on this board.......not counting trolls and visitors.....with that kind of readership your bound to get every theory out there thrown at you to look over.....look at it as diversity in dicussions........

 

[FootballFan85]

You have to remember,we have almost 10,000 members alone on this board.......not counting trolls and visitors.....with that kind of readership your bound to get every theory out there thrown at you to look over.....look at it as diversity in dicussions........

Good point indeed, which is why I initially appologized to those who didnt fit my generalization.
It just seems like out of the huge membership here, the ones who post the most seem to constantly be bringing up how much the league and refs are out to get this team.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Great reply.

I still question though why if the refs or anyone else were actively trying to stop the Pats they didnt just go the one extra step in any one of the close games. If those games were in fact close because the refs were hindering the pats, why did the refs stop hindering them just in time for the Pats to win? It logically doesnt make sense. It would be like a team getting to the redzone down by 1 late in a game and then just kneel and run the clock. If your goal is to stop the Pats through officiating, then why stop up just short of completeing your goal?

To go back to the Colts game, there's only so much that can be done. If the Pats find a way to come back from down 10 in the latter portion of the fourth quarter, what are they going to do? IF the fix was in, then it had to be just questionable enough to maintain plausible deniability, and, for that, the Colts would have had to make plays down the line.

I'm not underestimating the Colts- they do scare me. That said, they didn't play a great game that day, and I still think that we should have beaten them by at least 14-17 points. It was probably just a badly officiated game, but if there was malevolent intent there, the reason why it wasn't seen all the way through was because the Colts failed to hold up their end of the bargain. Once again, that's an enormous if.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Im not saying any QB would ever do that. Heres the rule:

NFL Rule 3, Section 21, Article 2, Note 2: "When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble.

The point is Brady showed no sign of trying to tuck the ball back into his body. And his arm was in a completely down position where a QB would not uncommonly hold a ball looking for receivers. It was not still in the process of stopping his forward motion or bringing the ball in. The rule should not have applied to that situation. Im sure you can all find the video. Brady stops his throwing motion and brings the ball down right to set with his other hand, which opens up beside the ball. Its not hard to see.

I repeat:
How many times have YOU "watched the video"? If you really watched the video and were the knowlegeable football fan that you claim to be, you would see the the "tuck call" should not have been called at all.

What should have been called was a 15 yard penalty on Woodson for a head slap on Brady BEFORE his arm came down on the ball. So, the ref blew the call. And a 15 yard penalty would have put the Patriots in a position to score a winning TD instead of kicking the game tieing FG.

Watch it again and tell me that I'm wrong.

You seem to be giving expert opinion on that play. But ignoring the fact that the no call before "the call" would have made "the call" no call at all.

 

[BTTA]

Ive been reading this board all season (amazing board by the way, probably one of the most active I've ever seen)

Im not a Pats fan, Im a Minnesota fan, and I just dont understand some of the behaviour around here.

I constantly read posts by Pats fans who seem to honestly believe that the NFL and the game officials are actually out to get them! These people aren't kidding, theyre sincere, and its a fairly common view.

I mean honestly? Every team gets bad calls against them and every team gets bad calls in their favour. Its human nature to only remember the bad ones that go against you, just like in poker where you only remember all the times you got beat by some random fluke but never remember when a miracle card falls in your favour.

How is it that any fan in any city, especially one whose team is UNDEFEATED can actually be so ignorant as to think the league and its officials hold a vendetta against them?

I consistantly see how much you guys love to call fans in other cities "whiners". "The Colts are the biggest whiners", "The Steelers are the biggest whiners", etc, yes so many of you sit here and complain about how bad the NFL treats you, how biased the refs are, etc.

Can someone please explain to me how any serious sports fan with a drop of a clue can actually think their team is being targeted by league officials and refs? Id love to understand.

Do you actually believe the refs are out to get you? Do you actually believe the Commissioner is against you? Do you actually believe that GM from the Colts has the power to mold the league to his liking so his team could beat you? Do you actually believe that the NFL intentionally lets other teams off on things and nails the patriots just for kicks?

You guys are on pace for a perfect season and you STILL complain and make conspiracy theories. SHould that not make YOU the biggest whiners? I cant even imagine what this place would sound like if the Pats lost a game.

(oh and dont use "bullcrap Offensive PI on Moss". Its been happening his WHOLE career. Minnesota fans remember it well. The fact of the matter is, he should know by now whats going to happen if he puts his hands on a dback. Its bull**** yes, but its not new)

(oh and sorry to the Pats fans around here who actually write with their brains, I dont mean to group you in with the crazies)

I think you have been put up to this posting by NFL officials, as a way to get us to quiet down. Obviously, our beliefs that the League is out to get us are correct, and this posting is just another example of this.

So, are you man enough to admit it (assuming you are a man)? How much are they paying you to do this? Are you an Indie, Charger, or Pittsburgh fan?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Sure thing.

Firstly let me state openly, Im not a big fan of Bill Bellichek. As a coach is he the best? Undoubtedly. No question. As a guy, is he a little sour and maybe a bit of an ass? Yes. As such, while Id love him to coach my team, I dont know if Id want to have a beer with him.
Now moving on..

I think the big factors were this:
1) He broke a rule that was clearly forbidden by the NFL. No shooting from the other teams sidelines.
2) He was a repeat offender whod already been warned.
3) And this one I think is big, he comes off as a very arrogant kind of guy in his behavior. Should he be? Sure why not hes an amazing coach. But I think his overall attitude might have made it seem like by repeating a previously warned offense, he was saying "Im BB, Im the greatest, Il ldo what I want"
Now #3 is complete speculation and probably SHOULDNT have factored into the decision if it did.

Now for the punishment. Fine Bellichick or fine the team, not both. The taking of the draft pick was WAY over the top. Too much, not necessary.

As for enforcing fairly, before I can say that I would need to know if there is a rule on the book that forbids Mangini shooting from where he was. There IS a rule saying stay away from the other teams sidelines, so BB was guilty.
If Mangini was guilty of violating a rule on the book, that someone can show me (I dont want homerism here I want objectivity), then he should get it WORSE than BB.
But Id need to see tha rule.

Do I think Mangini is a hyporcite? Yes. If hes taping with permission no problem, but if he actually didnt ask the Pats or was asked not to, and did it anyways, broken rule or not hes an ass.

However, does anyone else agree with me that it was a little dumb of BB to throw a guy with a giant camera on Manginis sideline, knowing he was breaking a rule but more importantly KNOWING Mangini knew he was going to do it? Seems like he was asking to get called out.
And against the Jets? Yeesh. You could play Madden 08 and get as good of a scouting report on that team as video taping the bums would give you.

If your take on the situation was even close to the norm, we probably wouldn't have become such an embattled bunch of jerks over the last couple of months. Most people here have no problem with acknowledging that a punishment was warranted; we just feel that the punishment was too steep, and the ensuing media fallout and asterisk fiasco compounded everything.