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Question about Seymour trade

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by betterthanthealternative, Sep 9, 2009.

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  1. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative In the Starting Line-Up

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    Given that the NFL is now listing it an an official transaction, does that mean that there was no physical requirement clause and that the trade is complete? So if he doesn't report, it isn't a hold out on the Pats, it is a hold out on Oakland?
     
  2. Jimke

    Jimke In the Starting Line-Up

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    I think Seymour still has to pass a physical to complete the trade

    but it is up to Oakland to pressure Seymour to report. Belichick

    stated that the rights to Seymour belong to Oakland. As a last

    resort, Oakland can present Seymour and his agent with an official

    notice to report. Then, if Seymour does not report in 5 days, he

    cannot play football in 2009. He would remain the property of

    Oakland and not accrue a year of service.
     
  3. satz

    satz 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    The trade is complete pending a physical. Its a standard clause in any trade where a physical have to be passed. Remember vrabel trade could not complete for 2 -3 days as he did not show up in KC a few months back or randy moss trade was not confirmed till moss took his physical in foxboro on draft night [remember].I am amazed that people refuse to remember this even while signing a FA passing a physical is a step...remember AD FA signing was being withheld till he passed the physical....dohh!!!!

    Unless a special clause is added to exempt this but this was a standard trade.

    so seymour does not show up in oakland the 5 day letter has to be send from NE as oakland never got his rights. he is still the property of Patriots as he never passed the physical and reported there.This in CBA to protect from teams trading injured players without disclosing their injury.

    In the 5 letter day he will be asked to report to work[oakland] or placed under the non football list ending his year.

    Here is the fun thing if seymour showsup in Foxboro with in 5 days the patriots can suspend him for insubordination which confirms he still with NE nullifying the trade or let him play for the patriots
    either way what every BB and co put out the trade is not complete without a physical.

    satz
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
  4. Mack Herron

    Mack Herron In the Starting Line-Up

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    #24 Jersey

    This is what I have been saying as well. If he is still the property of the Patriots, the transaction is not complete. The draft pick is not in BB's pocket just yet.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
  5. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    No, but it is if you play it out.

    If Seymour doesn't report then the Patriots will send the 5 day letter telling him to report to Oakland.

    If he reports to Oakland it's all good.

    If he doesn't plan to report to Oakland then he will be made aware that the repercussions are the year without pay and no accrued year to FA. Although he doesn't HAVE to report to Oakland the consequences are too severe.

    And that's a wrap.

    The only slight wiggle room is if his agent claims he can report to NE to satisfy the 5 day letter but as the league has approved his trade to Oakland, pending his reporting and passing a physical, he would almost certainly lose that argument.
     
  6. Metaphors

    Metaphors In the Starting Line-Up

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    Where are you getting this information from? This is completely contrary to everything I've ever heard or understood about trading a player. Once the league recognizes a trade, the transaction is complete but effectively held in "escrow". At this point, Seymour can not play, practice or represent the Patriots in any official capacity. What rights do the Patriots have?

    The Raiders can petition the league to void the trade for any reason, but the league has to void it...Oakland can't. If Seymour fails a physical with Oakland, that doesn't void the trade but can be used as evidence to petition the league.

    As for the 5-day report letter, I'm almost certain that will have to come from Oakland. Just as I'm almost certain that Seymour does not have the option of reporting back to the Patriots or that the Patriots could suspend him for insubordination or any other offense.

    The deal is done. It would take an exceptional circumstance for the league to undo it. The only interesting part of this would be if the Patriots were looking to flip the #1 pick in another trade. The league would prevent this until Seymour passes a physical so the Pats are also being held hostage in this situation. They have an asset that they are prevented from using. Since I don't believe the Pats are looking to trade that #1, that point is probably moot.
     
  7. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    That's what would make sense to me, a lot of people think the Patriots would send the letter based on what PFT and Curran are saying. Who would send the letter, I don't know. But I agree with you on how it plays out, once the letter is send he has 5 days to report to the Raiders or be suspended for the season; which he almost certainly won't do. The uncertainty comes whether we get the trade done in the very unlikely scenario in which he actually does sit out the season.
     
  8. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative In the Starting Line-Up

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    So there is a difference of opinion here as to whether Oakland has his rights and thus would send the 5 day letter, or whether the Patriots do and would.
     
  9. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I see a lot of assumptions based on the standard way trades apear to happen. But those standard trades don't run into issues like this so the details are never made clear.

    I think there is a possibility that trades are considered complete when the paperwork is done, and if the physical is failed then the trade is rescinded. But until the physical is failed and the trade is reversed the player's rights are under the control of the team he was traded to.

    This is only an assumption on my part, but it especially makes sense to me after hearing BB say, when asked on WEEI about the trade, that he couldn't discuss it, Seymour is no longer under their control at all.

    So to me there is a possibility a 5 day letter would come from the Raiders.
     
  10. satz

    satz 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Tom curran was on last night on sports tonight only to answer this 1 question specifically.

    He said he was able to get this from profootball talk which has camped out in the NFL office trying to find out what will happen going forward.He said from what they could find out NFL office this trade is at "trade pending physical" status .
     
  11. satz

    satz 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    their is no rescinding of trade in the CBA or NFL rules as of now. Its either complete or noncomplete[pending] . Could you elaborate where you got the idea that rescinding of trade is an option. Its a business transation their are no refunds. If this is so why did not we receive the KC 2nd rd pick till vrabel reported and took his physical.He was awol for 3-4 days and we did not get the pick.Please explain why we could not get the pick ?.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
  12. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Since there was no draft in progress where they could have used the pick, how do you know we didn't technically have the pick all along? You can't tell anything about the exact details of how a trade works from Vrabel's situation, nothing would have been obviously different either way.
     
  13. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You know guys, if you bothered to read the transcript of the BB press conference posted by Reiss and Price, or to listen to BB's visit to WEEI, you'd know this: "Q: Is there any chance this trade will go back? Is this a done deal?

    BB: As I said earlier, we don’t have rights to Richard, so I can’t make any comments about him or his situation."

    Now, Rotoworld reported Sey was looking for a contract extension, Tommy Kelly got ridiculous money in Oakland, Namdi As-alphabet got a big payday, Seymour was just acquired for a first round draft pick coming off an 8 sack season, his contract leverage will never be as high again. Follow the money.
     
  14. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Vrabel was never AWOL. He reported to KC on Friday the day before the start of FA and took his physical before Cassel was added to the deal on Saturday. The deal wasn't finalized until Cassel was added and the package trade was filed with the league. Until then Vrable was traded to KC pending undisclosed terms.
     
  15. GullyFoyle

    GullyFoyle Banned

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    How can anyone still like Seymour?
     
  16. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course that's it only Oakland is trying to deflect attention away from that by characterizing Richard's holdout as some Patriots snafu...:ugh:

    Contrary to what Cable reported Richard is not anxious to get to Oakland, he's sobbing in his mini mansion and wants options/concessions to mull to dry his tears like waiving the 2010 tag or extending him to a top tier deal...
     
  17. satz

    satz 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    What about Moss then. The trade happened on the night of the draft for a pick that was 7th or 8th on the next day . That night moss had to come in and take a physical before the trade was completed. At the start of the day all media including the NE Fo repeated that they cannot confirm the trade unless moss takes his physical in person....why? Oakland could pick up the drafty without the mess of flying in all night and take a early morning physical.

    As i mentioned their is a hole in the system and seems like seymour is the first one to actually use it.This was add by NFLPA to protect the players but no player seem to have used it.
    anyway , maybe seymour will show up today and end this or if he shows up in foxboro after the letter is send and he is suspended by pats NFLPA gets in for more fun.

    their is no love loss between him and BB, all he had to do is get the 5 day letter show up in foxboro get the NFLPA camped out BB office to piss him off .Ofcourse the sport center attention and coverage on BB will be nasty.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
  18. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And yet here everyone HAS confirmed the trade. The Pats were trading for Moss contingent on his also agreeing to take a pay cut and the details of that needed to be hammered out and signed off on as well as he had to undergo his face to face with BB and Kraft to convince them he would be a team player. Those were pre trade contingencies. You can't alway base assumptions on media reports, staz.

    And trades and deals do get voided. If for example you traded for a player and then the league determined you were over the cap because of some earlier undetected reporting inconsistencies they can start voiding deals until you are in compliance... If you traded for a player and the trading partner later contended you had tampered with him thereby possibly impacting their leverage, deal could be voided. Not sure what business you're talking about where transactions are non refundable, either. Unless specified as such there is always recourse contingent on the circumstances.

    For all we know the Patriots got Oakland to waive the physical and reporting requirements in anticipation of some sort of holdout. Bill's cryptic "we traded the rights" statement could be indicative of that.
     
  19. patfanken

    patfanken Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #91 Jersey

    I think we have a semantics issue here. I'm no expert. I'm getting most of my info from experts in this thread. I think the issue is the difference in the terms "completed" and "finalized".

    From what I can gather from the conversation, the deal is COMPLETED when the league recognizes it as a legitimate transaction. It is FINALIZED when the player takes his physical. The ONLY way the deal can be unraveled from the Pats side, is if Seymour FAILS the physical. Barring THAT specific caveat, the deal is COMPLETED and any action mandating Seymour to report has to come from Oakland.
     
  20. italia44

    italia44 In the Starting Line-Up

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    The 5 day letter comes from Oakland,not N E.....per the NFL the trade is complete,pending physical.

    The Patriots no longer have anything to do with Sey.....all his talking...renegotiating,,,,,whining....crying....gnashing of teeth,has to be done with Oakland.

    The NFL is not picking up the phone,nor are the Patriots or any other team.

    Put aside the 5 day letter for now......Seymour is about to lose 1/17th of his salary......if,somehow,he delays the reserve/retired designation until next week.....he loses another 1/17th oh his pay.

    This is not a winning strategy....I think Seymour and his agent were hoping that the Patriots would help him out with his negotiation with Oakland......Not going to happen.

    Like BB said.....Richard Who?....Not our player.

    The Raiders sre looking for the League to help them out here...not gonna happen,They've already lost Seymours value for the first week.

    This is now, a giant cluster-f-ck for Oakland.They either have to pay Seymour a ridiculous sum or be the subject of ridiculous ridicuie.

    There,truly,is a Black Hole in Oaktown.
     
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