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"Pro-choice" and Christian? I dont...think so!

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by 3 to be 4, Mar 31, 2007.

  1. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 Rookie

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  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    http://ffrf.org/nontracts/abortion.php

    Funny, how the religious right interprets the literal truth of the Bible in ways that match their bigoted and selfish social views. Throughout history, conservatives have used the Bible to justify slavery, oppose interracial marriage, discriminate against gays, women, and people of color, embrace avarice, oppose programs to help the poor, etc.
  3. PatsFanInVa

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    I love how the first op-ed article cited says "some people say the bible does not address abortion."

    And then goes on to quote passages of the bible that do not address abortion.

    It's weird how the people who wrote the bible just didn't even think of it - at least not as a sin.

    It seems we have two possibilities: Either the divinely inspired, but human-written text leaves out abortion, in which case you are interpreting abortion back in; or else God personally selected every word in the bible, in which case He personally has declared Himself pro-choice, by omission.

    I see no room for the position that God is anti-abortion, but forgot to mention it.

    PFnV
  4. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 Rookie

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    obviously, the text of the links were not read.
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I read the first two links and found them no more convincing than the link I posted. Why didn't Jesus just come right out and say, "Abortion is wrong"?
  6. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 Rookie

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    gee, i dont know my intelligent debating expert.

    why didnt Jesus say clearly.....

    "Dont string up a black person from a tree"

    "Dont beat a homosexual until he's unrecognizable like Matthew Sheppard"

    "Dont kidnap a child from a mall and strangle them"



    those links gave PLENTY of verses that mention life in the womb as child, as infant, as life..
    the Bible is also clear in describing that taking that life is wrong.


    that those who read the verses, with a predisposed hostility toward it, dont want to take in what they just read is not surprising.

    It was common sense before 1973 that abortion was something to be ashamed of, because it is wrong.

    two thousand years there was no word "Abortion" and I dont believe Jesus thought He would ever need to tell people not to do it.

    and as far as this myth that Pro-Life equals "anti-women" think about this. How many females are aborted every year? In China people have ultrasounds to determine sex, that way if its a girl they can kill it.

    but that shouldnt be a shock. People with disabilities are deemed less viable life than perfect people so those children get aborted at the first sign of a possibility of a defect.

    when there is a test that determines sexual orientation at 20 weeks, watch out brother! You'll be the first to cry foul when those "fetuses" get destroyed.

    But I guess that would be an immoral and shallow reason to have an abortion, unlike, say, sex, perfectness, or an upcoming job opportunity that people use as reasons now.
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Now, now, calm down. I believe abortion did exist back then, so it would not have been unreasonable to mention it. Granted, he couldn't foresee the future, but he certainly must have some idea of what was going on. The Bible is far clearer on issues like homosexuality than abortion.

    But, the site I provided provides quotes that saying life doesn't begin until the first breath and prescribes a lighter punishment for murdering a fetus than a mother. And while the Bible says killing is wrong, it has a lot of killing, so it's not clear there either. If it was, Christians would be far more likely to oppose the death penalty than they do.

    There was no hostility, but you seem awfully hostile.

    Before '73 it was also common sense that being a rape victim was something to be ashamed of. We've evolved.

    I think the word was around. Apparently, there's a Christian book called the Didache or something like that that expressly forbids abortion. And, according to Wikipedia, abortion has existed since well before Jesus, so he probably knew about it.

    Perhaps as a matter population control, they should allow allow abortions of males?

    If you regard the fetus as a living baby, which you do, then you have a point. I don't regard the fetus in that way.

    That's not true. The world will go on. I would hope that not everyone would try to genetically "optimize" their child.

    Your putting words in my mouth. I would hope civilized people will promote diversity in this world. Sure there will be those who want to do plastic surgery in the womb, but the vast majority of people aren't like that. Most Christians and most liberals would not have an abortion because their fetus had the gay gene. Who knows, when that time comes, maybe the Christians and Liberals will unite.
  8. Harry Boy

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    I am a "pro choice" christian but only in the early months, after the second abortion a women should sterilized because it should be quite clear that after the second abortion that this particualr women does not want children.

    Crack Head mothers should be sterilized after the first abortion than they can get high and screw all they want to the only people they will hurt is themselves
  9. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 Rookie

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    like I said to Patters, you just didnt want to take in what you read. How many more times can the words "womb", "child","infant" be written? Its never called "mass of tissue" or "fetus" in the Bible. its always refered to with the same language that is used of a baby after he/she is born. So it is established that what is inside the mother is life. If taking a childs life is wrong, which is clear in the Bible, then abortion is wrong.

    its also interesting how I have been chastised in the past for trying to, or more accurately, being accused of, trying to define what is means to be a Jew ( which i didnt, btw)
    ...but here are non-Christians telling us that according to the Bible its ok for a Christian to have an abortion. Gee, thanks. However, It probably makes more sense for a Christian to respond to how a Christian can be "Pro-choice"
  10. PatsFanInVa

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    Don't get your knickers in a bunch, 3.

    It does not really count as dictating your faith to you, to respond to your titular assertion that, in essence, no Christian is pro-choice. I know many who are.

    Christianity has to do with confession of Jesus as a divine and messianic figure; there may be branches of Christianity who see him only as the messiah, but I believe divinity is ascribed throughout the mainstream of the religion.

    However, to say "I am a Christian", for many Christians, has nothing to do with either their personal view of abortion, nor with their belief in the sort of choice which was, in fact, available in the very ancient society you assert did not permit it. (Abortion was legal, even under the quite strict theocracy of ancient Israel. If the mother's life was in danger, the fetus was considered radef, a pursuer.)

    The main point here is that to say "I am pro-choice" is not to say "I would have an abortion." It is to say, "I believe in each individual's choice in the matter of abortion."

    You can go back to Barnabas and other very early church fathers, and find the most scathing condemnations of abortion. You can also read St. Augustine and find a more tolerant attitude. He and St. Jerome were particularly concerened with a time at which "ensoulment" occured. Various concepts - "ensoulment," "quickening", and "animation" of the fetus among them - were invoked within the Christian church not to argue that all abortion was murder, but specifically to delineate when, not whether, some abortions become murder. Aquinas too did not believe all abortions to be murder, as was the case with most influential christian sources prior to the 17th century, when the doctrine of "simultaneous animation" gained currency. And it was not until 1869 that a pope dropped the distinction between animated and unanimated fetuses -- well after Protestantism split off from the Catholic church, by the way, if this is of any importance to Christians thinking about the abortion issue.

    Evidently, Aquinas, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and a number of popes in the Western Christian church, did not have your piercing understanding of the scriptures; this is unfortunate, as they have led countless people astray with their less black-and-white views on the personal issue of abortion itself.

    Jesus, who urged that we "render unto caesar what is caesar's," would probably also benefit from learning Christianity at your knee.

    PFnV
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2007
  11. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 Rookie

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    I never said that no Christian is Pro-choice, but im saying they shouldnt be.

    And I wasnt saying you didnt have a right to respond, just that its interesting how you feel free to respond to Christianity but didnt feel I had a right to say what I did about Judaism. If I was being "anti-semitic", doesnt this now make you "anti-Christian"?
    Note: I know the answer is No. The question is more to point out the ridiculousness of your earlier name-calling about me.

    sometimes is just comes down to common sense. If you look at these wonderful 3-D images they now have of unborn babies and marvel at the life you are seeing, and if the thought of that which you are seeing being ripped apart turns your stomach, then its kind of hard to reconcile how this is a practice that a person with a moral compass could justify.

    legal it is, disgusting as well. You dont have to be "religious" to come to that conclusion. Its just that the religious know they have a consciense and a God to answer to. So they tend to open their eyes a little wider.

    as far as the babbling of your last 2 paragraphs, you seem to think i follow what Popes have to say, and you think you are in a position to talk about what Jesus feels about the subject. As you reject Jesus you obviously have no clue about what he commands about anything so dont even go there.

    "render unto caesar what is caesar's," meant, follow the laws of the land. Pay your taxes. It didnt mean to go have an abortion.
  12. PatsFanInVa

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    [MODS - PLEASE MOVE THREAD TO RELIGION FORUM]

    3, Also note that consistently, you have attempted to package people into pre-defined spiritual boxes, with the exception of claiming for some time that Christianity was an expression of Judaism, something you finally dropped in our recent encounter in the religion thread.

    Now you feel you can at least tell all Christians how to live their lives, and I but offer them the alternatives earlier Christians pursued.

    My point is that people are much freer to interpret their faith than the self-appointed modern moralists claim, whether within Christianity or outside it. A Christian needs to look no farther than his own church prior to its schisms, to see this. Many many others came before you and your vaunted common sense, many who were proud to call themselves Christians, and who had much richer arguments; are they not worth reading -- Particularly when they are so much more understanding of day-to-day humanity, than are one's own contemporaries?

    Use your good old common sense, 3. Was Augustine a Christian? Was St. Jerome? Was Thomas Aquinas? Don't you think they knew what went on in such a procedure?

    I think so. I think that's why they split hairs with trying to figure out when the fetus was "human" and when it was and wasn't "murder" to have an abortion.

    Beyond that, not everybody is a Christian, and the laws of the land must apply to the rest of us as well -- just like things like currency and taxation.

    Jesus preached separation of church and state, assuming the gospels are correct. "Render unto Caesar." With all the outrages committed on a daily basis by Roman occupiers, Jesus takes surprisingly few actions and speaks infrequently in the gospels about Rome's brutality.

    Yet, he says "render unto Caesar," despite the well-known character of that occupying empire.

    Some things are just common sense, 3.

    The guy clearly says "Secular authority makes secular laws, divine authority makes the divine law."

    And that is exactly what a pro-choice, anti-abortion Christian believes: not everyone believes as I do; abortion can be safer/legal, or less safe/illegal; and the secular law as it stands is in the interests of the republic.

    PFnV
  13. 3 to be 4

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    Do you have convictions? What is it to believe in something?

    Is standing up for something "imposing" oneself? By me stating what I believe have a changed any laws?

    You act as if I have, just by expressing what I believe.

    those who take the bogus Pro-Choice/anti-abortion non-stand are imposing their beliefs on the unborn.

    Consider these potential "convictions":
    I am personally against slavery, but I do not believe I have a right to tell my neighbor he cannot have slaves. ( although you are telling the slave you arent going to do anything to free him)

    I am personally against crack, but im not going to impose that belief on my schools principal

    I am personally against murder, but i am not going to impose my belief on my congressman to keep it illegal.

    this liberal babble of "I am personally against abortion, but I wont impose my beliefs on another person" is such B.S. because you ARE imposing your beliefs,
    you are imposing it on the aborted child.
    You DO believe in abortion because you DO support the right of that baby being aborted.

    theres that old saying, those that stand by and do nothing are just as guilty.

    Pro-Choice/Anti-Abortion is total baloney and moral weakness.
  14. PatsFanInVa

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    Consider this similarly constructed argument from analogy:

    "I am personally against Roman immorality, tyranny, and murder, but I believe you should pay your taxes to the Roman state."

    The morally weak, evidently, includes some pretty highly touted company.

    What you've done, above, is taken the position that all abortion is murder, and furthermore, taken the position that all Christians believe this to be the case. You further take that to be an established absolute evil on a par with actual murder and with slavery, and assume that all readers agree with your interpretation of scripture on the matter.

    Christians such as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas believed otherwise. From this I conclude that it is reasonable to assume Christians of the present day may believe otherwise as well.

    And so, you argue from what you tout as objective knowledge of what a Christian and is not, but in so doing have converted the word "Christian" to mean "Christians who share 3tobe4's views." This is quite likely the minority of Christians, and certainly excludes many of the luminaries of church history, prior to the Protestant schism.

    I know a Catholic woman who tells me she thought "Christian" meant evangelical Protestants, because she sees ads saying "Christian woman wanted as caretaker..." or whatever, and through this hijacked usage comes to the conclusion that she must not be a Christian.

    Not terribly fair, is it?

    PFnV
  15. 3 to be 4

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    No, it is not. I myself am not a Catholic, but ive always been clear that as long as a Catholic believes that Jesus is the Son of God, Died on the Cross for our sins, and rose 3 days later, they are absolutely a Christian,

    I just dont see how they could support abortion rights.
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2007
  16. PatsFanInVa

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    Okay then, gotcha, and I do see it, though I can understand from your posts how it's mystifying from your P.O.V.

    'Nuff said, I suppose,

    PFnV

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