Prisco's overrated/underrated list

[Kontradiction]

If you go and look at the NFL game center last year for the first five weeks of the season, you will see that Watson was making catches and getting yardage. Even touchdowns. He was starting to have a good year behind a stellar WR corps then the Cowboy game came around and Roy "I want to work out by myself, eat cheeseburgers, and generally not be able to cover" Williams dragged him down by a horse collar tackle. Watson was injured the entire year after that. So his lack of production in the second half of the season is not suprising. Some could point to the lack of a good pass catching TE as one of the reasons for our offense sputtering down the stretch as well.

 

[DaBruinz]

Whatever. THere was nothing in the statement you quoted about how to measure success. Those are your own misguided measuring sticks. The poster said Thomas did not perform as expected.

And he didn't. Not even close. Thomas was supposed to be the best FA available, and we were overjoyed that we got him. Except for a great play against the Chargers, he did not live up to the $$$ we spent on him.

I'm hoping he will do better this year, but so far we might as well have had Monty Beisel out there and Thomas.

Sorry Space. But you are misguided on this one. I think that Thomas performed better than expected considering it was his first year in a very complex Patriots system where he was learning to play a new position FULL TIME.

To say that Thomas didn't live up to expectations says more about the irrational expectations that Patriots fans have than it does about the play of AD.

BTW, you lost all credibility on the subject when you compared AD to Beisel. That is just you talking out your arse.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Fully agree.

I can't wait to see what happens this year when AD works with some younger/faster guys and how they do with a fully healthy Seymour.

Also, does anyone else think we are going to be lights out on defense this year? I love the new mix and can't wait to see what happens with T Williams.

 

[Kontradiction]

Speaking of Watson, here is his injury status:

Player, position, injury: Benjamin Watson, TE, cartilage damage in left ankle.

Rehab status: Watson continues to rehab following the ankle surgery he underwent in March. He is not participating in the Patriots' ongoing passing camp. Watson initially injured the ankle when Dallas' Roy Williams tackled him awkwardly during an Oct. 14 game. He was hurt again during a Dec. 9 game against Pittsburgh.

Next step: The team holds a mandatory camp beginning June 6. There's no reason to expect the Patriots to rush their most dynamic tight end. Getting Watson on the field for training camp could be the top priority. Even then, the Patriots might be wise to ease him into action.

Fantasy spin: If Watson is healthy and regains explosiveness, he'll resume his role as a primary red-zone threat for one of the league's scariest offenses. He's not a candidate for 100-plus targets, but even 75 would make him a borderline fantasy starter. David Thomas would benefit as a pass-catcher if Watson can't get his ankle right; the aging Marcus Pollard looked stiff in minicamp and doesn't seem like much of a fantasy threat.

 

[Sicilian]

Speaking of Watson, here is his injury status:

Player, position, injury: Benjamin Watson, TE, cartilage damage in left ankle.

Rehab status: Watson continues to rehab following the ankle surgery he underwent in March. He is not participating in the Patriots' ongoing passing camp. Watson initially injured the ankle when Dallas' Roy Williams tackled him awkwardly during an Oct. 14 game. He was hurt again during a Dec. 9 game against Pittsburgh.

Next step: The team holds a mandatory camp beginning June 6. There's no reason to expect the Patriots to rush their most dynamic tight end. Getting Watson on the field for training camp could be the top priority. Even then, the Patriots might be wise to ease him into action.

Fantasy spin: If Watson is healthy and regains explosiveness, he'll resume his role as a primary red-zone threat for one of the league's scariest offenses. He's not a candidate for 100-plus targets, but even 75 would make him a borderline fantasy starter. David Thomas would benefit as a pass-catcher if Watson can't get his ankle right; the aging Marcus Pollard looked stiff in minicamp and doesn't seem like much of a fantasy threat.

Gotta love ESPN...

1) The only remotely positive thing they write about the Patriots is the FANTASY IMPACT of our TE.

2) And I realize the irony of my next complaint given #1... 75 catches from a TE is BORDERLINE fantasy starter? 75 catches, 750 yards, and 6 TDs would be Top Five behind guys like Gates, Gonzalez, Witten, and Winslow.

 

[bradmahn]

Gotta love ESPN...

1) The only remotely positive thing they write about the Patriots is the FANTASY IMPACT of our TE.

2) And I realize the irony of my next complaint given #1... 75 catches from a TE is BORDERLINE fantasy starter? 75 catches, 750 yards, and 6 TDs would be Top Five behind guys like Gates, Gonzalez, Witten, and Winslow.

They aren't talking about catches - just targets.

No one has a 100% catch rate, so they wouldn't expect him to catch 75 passes and you can't catch what isn't thrown.

This is all relying on FootballOutsiders' data, but in '06 he was targeted 91 times and had a catch percentage of 54% while last year he was targeted 49 times and had a much-improved catch percentage of 73%.

Watson struggled (understandably, imho) in '06 but was much more efficient/effective last season. He needs to stay healthy, but I don't think 50 receptions and 8 or so TDs is out of the question for him this season although that could depend on the play/health of Dave Thomas.

 

[BradyManny]

Adalius Thomas = overrated?!@?!@# Are you f**king kidding me, Prisco? He played two different positions in a new system and played them both well. So well that I wish we could clone him and put him both inside and on the outside. Prisco obviously wasn't really paying much attention to AD, b/c he was a force at both ILB and OLB last season.

 

[Sicilian]

Adalius Thomas = overrated?!@?!@# Are you f**king kidding me, Prisco? He played two different positions in a new system and played them both well. So well that I wish we could clone him and put him both inside and on the outside. Prisco obviously wasn't really paying much attention to AD, b/c he was a force at both ILB and OLB last season.

Prisco is simpled minded and saw:

AD 2006 = 11 sacks
AD 2007 = 6.5 sacks

In Prisco's mind, that equals almost half as productive, and he didn't bother to actually learn how the sport works.

Numbers do not equal worth.

 

[captain stone]

I'm sure many here would have flip-flopped the two.



http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10843371

I certainly would have.

 

[captain stone]

Notice a trend here.....

I can't say that I disagree too strongly with those 4 names. Being "overrated" is one of the reasons that they're all ex-Patriots.

 

[captain stone]

He had the two right names but flipped them! Lets be honest: Ben Watson is overrated. He isn't particularly a good blocker and isn't having great wide receivers supposed to get you MORE catches. Honestly, for the offense of the Pats had, Gaffney and Stallworth put up modest stats meaning that really it was only Welker and Moss on the reads consistently above Watson.I mean, come on. Moss takes the safety in a back peddle consistently and Welker demands so much attention - it should be a field day for Ben. Plus, he is on a team that is hucking the ball all over the place in the most proficient offense ever. Passing when their up 4 touches for cyring out loud. Finally, I think Bill came to the same conclusion I am making when he drafted Dave Thomas and Garrett Mills back to back when everyone else thought the Pats needed D (arguably costing him 2 Manning 14 point 4th quarters by the way). Maybe he was indicating something we didn't know? I don't want to be controversial or anything but if they could have picked an off-season ago which first round TE they had under an existing contract in a dream world, we all knew it would have been Daniel.

Watson could be gone tomorrow and Dave Thomas would probably fill those shoes no problem.

Mega-dittos.

 

[captain stone]

1) Personally I would prefer to see them assemble a higher functioning OL than continue to try and pound square peg TE's into round holes.

2) Ditto converting FA's to suit the scheme as opposed to signing guys who only need to learn the system and not a new position to boot.

3) But I also realize the guy making those decisions has 5 rings to my none, not to mention yours and Prisco's.

1) I agree.

2) I doubly agree.

3) But that doesn't mean that the guy making those decisions is always right, and that you are always wrong.

 

[captain stone]

If you go and look at the NFL game center last year for the first five weeks of the season, you will see that Watson was making catches and getting yardage. Even touchdowns. He was starting to have a good year behind a stellar WR corps then the Cowboy game came around and Roy "I want to work out by myself, eat cheeseburgers, and generally not be able to cover" Williams dragged him down by a horse collar tackle. Watson was injured the entire year after that. So his lack of production in the second half of the season is not suprising. Some could point to the lack of a good pass catching TE as one of the reasons for our offense sputtering down the stretch as well.

Fair points; but I wonder how much his bad ankle had to do with dropping a pass in the end zone during the 1st quarter at Baltimore on 3rd/goal. Those extra 4 points would have allowed the Pats, and the rest of us, to sweat out the 4th quarter to a somewhat lesser degree.

 

[captain stone]

They aren't talking about catches - just targets.

No one has a 100% catch rate, so they wouldn't expect him to catch 75 passes and you can't catch what isn't thrown.

This is all relying on FootballOutsiders' data, but in '06 he was targeted 91 times and had a catch percentage of 54% while last year he was targeted 49 times and had a much-improved catch percentage of 73%.

Watson struggled (understandably, imho) in '06 but was much more efficient/effective last season. He needs to stay healthy, but I don't think 50 receptions and 8 or so TDs is out of the question for him this season although that could depend on the play/health of Dave Thomas.

Perhaps I have forgotten something from that season, but why is Watson's struggling in '06 understandable? After all, he set career-highs in # of catches and total yards, though at a much lower % than last season.

 

[bradmahn]

Perhaps I have forgotten something from that season, but why is Watson's struggling in '06 understandable? After all, he set career-highs in # of catches and total yards, though at a much lower % than last season.

Do you honestly expect him to be Tony Gonzalez or Antonio Gates and put up phenomenal numbers while being the only legitimate receiver?

At least those two had/have phenomenal running games to counterbalance their abilities. As much as I'd like to say it, Maroney and Dillon in '06 were not LdT/LJ/Holmes. Combine that with his relative inexperience (after losing his rookie season) and injuries toward the end of the season, and yeah, I'd say his struggles were understandable.

 

[captain stone]

If you're saying that his lower Catch % in '06, compared to '07, was due to being covered better and more often because of the lack of quality WRs, then I can buy that. But I can't buy the relative inexperience reason as much. Watson had played in 15/16 games in '05, plus both POs. And he had the entire '04 season to learn the system, terminology and TE assignments while on IR. Was he a grizzled vet of 35+ games by the start of '06? No, but he wasn't a wet-behind-the-ears 1st year player, either.

 

[Ring 6]

To be fair, I don't think anyone here can really say AT gave them what was really expected last year.

Granted, with Colvin going down he had to adapt and still had a solid year, but not the All-Pro performance we would have wanted.

This year though, should be another story.

He did almost exactly what I expected. I guess my expectations were lower than yours.
He had a very good year. I dont know why anyone expected all-pro from him.
I think the expectations are higher this year because he is going to be used in his best position, and will be a guy who can be a focus of what we do, rather than a guy who played out of position in support of the guys who were the focus last year.

 

[bradmahn]

If you're saying that his lower Catch % in '06, compared to '07, was due to being covered better and more often because of the lack of quality WRs, then I can buy that. But I can't buy the relative inexperience reason as much. Watson had played in 15/16 games in '05, plus both POs. And he had the entire '04 season to learn the system, terminology and TE assignments while on IR. Was he a grizzled vet of 35+ games by the start of '06? No, but he wasn't a wet-behind-the-ears 1st year player, either.

And one season's worth of playing time is enough for a player to fully grasp the particulars of playing a position, especially from an offense that changed so drastically from 2005 to 2006?

He went from being behind Branch, Givens, and Troy in terms of targets (in more games than Givens and Troy, at that) to 11 behind Caldwell in '06 (in 3 fewer games). On a per game average, Watson was the number one target in '06. So tell me why one year's worth of playing time is enough to prepare a player to go from being the fourth target one year, to the number one the following?

 

[Disco Volante]

so you says he did not deliver yet do not explain that when he was inside pats run defence was giving 83 yds/game and moving him outside resulted in 113 yds/game.
could you please explain how his inside presence or absence did not contributed to this.

This is a horrible “argument” that doesn’t even justify a response.

Our rush defense declining as the year progressed with him moving to OLB =/= Justifying anyone saying he lived up to his All-Pro expectations before that.

OF COURSE the Run D went down when you made Junior Seau a full time starter. Are you even trying?

I love how some people love to just argue for the sake of arguing pro-Pats. Try again next time champ, please.

I dont know why anyone expected all-pro from him.

2006 All-Pro Selection
$35 million / $20 million guaranteed

 

[BradyManny]

Prisco is simpled minded and saw:

AD 2006 = 11 sacks
AD 2007 = 6.5 sacks

In Prisco's mind, that equals almost half as productive, and he didn't bother to actually learn how the sport works.

Numbers do not equal worth.

Right. He didn't dig deep enough to realize that 5 of those sacks were in the last 8 games, in which AD played primarily OLB. Which is about the production he had in 2006. And of course, he failed to mention that AD was productive at SILB, and that the Colvin injury which moved him to OLB and saw Bruschi play at SILB was a major factor in why our run defense declined in the 2nd half of the season. As I said, I wish we had two ADs, one for OLB and one for SILB.