Principles of the 3-4 defense

[TripleOption]

My apologies for using confusing terminology (again ). A "chute" route meets an iin-cut route (in this case a slant, some other routes would be post, curl, dig) right at the cut point and proceeds up the sidelines, almost like a fade. It is different from a chair route because there are no hard cuts. Oftentimes it is run by a skill player motioning into twins formation, to give that player a speed advantage getting wide and deep.

The corner plays it exactly like he does TripleOption's arrow route, except for the chute eventually passes out of the flats, and the corner hands it off to the safety.

EDIT: I realize now that the common term for this route is likely "wheel." It's a wheel being run out the slot, however, so there's not as much parallel motion and the receiver gets up the field faster.

OK, we would call that a Wheel. We run it more like you described, as the "Out and Up" version is much too slow. Option teams call that combo (Skinny Post/Wheel) the "Switch Route" because it simulates the Switch blocking they use on the perimeter (#1 cracks the Force, #2 arcs to cut the CB)

I have seen the Arrow called the "Shoot" as well.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

OK, we would call that a Wheel. We run it more like you described, as the "Out and Up" version is much too slow. Option teams call that combo (Skinny Post/Wheel) the "Switch Route" because it simulates the Switch blocking they use on the perimeter (#1 cracks the Force, #2 arcs to cut the CB)

I have seen the Arrow called the "Shoot" as well.

so its kinda like the "Out and Up," but the WR cuts corners and doesn't quite do 90 degree angles. The result being that the route is run by the WR much faster. Does the WR cut it on 45 degree angles, kind of like so?

..|
..|
..|
./
|
|
|

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

ok, this all makes sense. I remember when Tom Brady broke down the TD pass he threw in SB 36 to Patten. Tom said BB wanted Charlie to call a out-and-up because Dexter Mcleon (sp) always tended to "squat" at the goalline. Tom said Dexter just wouldn't let anyone throw a out on him, so they gave him the "cheese" in Tom's words, and then ran the up. Patten caught it, result TD. Patriots 14, Rams 3 at half-time.

I now understand when Tom said the term "squat," in view of the cover-2 squat, and the CB being a pure flat player.

 

[unoriginal]

so its kinda like the "Out and Up," but the WR cuts corners and doesn't quite do 90 degree angles. The result being that the route is run by the WR much faster. Does the WR cut it on 45 degree angles, kind of like so?

..|
..|
..|
./
|
|
|

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

ohh, it looks more like a fade than I thought.

 

[TripleOption]

Switch Route. Navy loves it.

 

[TripleOption]

ok, this all makes sense. I remember when Tom Brady broke down the TD pass he threw in SB 36 to Patten. Tom said BB wanted Charlie to call a out-and-up because Dexter Mcleon (sp) always tended to "squat" at the goalline. Tom said Dexter just wouldn't let anyone throw a out on him, so they gave him the "cheese" in Tom's words, and then ran the up. Patten caught it, result TD. Patriots 14, Rams 3 at half-time.

I now understand when Tom said the term "squat," in view of the cover-2 squat, and the CB being a pure flat player.

If you want another GREAT "Take the Cheese" coaching move by Weis, check out the Smoke and Go vs the Colts near the Goal Line. The Pats ran the Smoke (Quick X Screen) all year and vs the Colts, the CB bit hard and I believe Givens got the easy TD.

 

[unoriginal]

ohh, it looks more like a fade than I thought.

Like a fade, the chute puts pressure on the defense to cover the deep sideline. Its the farthest place for the safety to get to, and if you run it fast/deep enough you can beat the corner to the ball.

Unfortunately, like the fade, the chute puts equal pressure on the quarterback's arm. In the route combo above the chute is the 2nd or 3rd read, after the slant, because the chute is primarily designed to get the cover 2 corner and safety wide and deep, opening up windows for the slant to sit down in, behind the linebackers. If the safety jumps that, the chute is a potential home run.

 

[shirtsleeve]

Thanks guys, this is turning into another very educational thread!

 

[everlong]

Great thread. Watching the games I pick up on lots of this but to see it written down and the theory behind it is very cool.

 

[shirtsleeve]

bump......

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

Triple Option, what kind of base defense do you run? Also, I'm really interested in stemming and disguising defensive coverages. If you wouldn't mind, could you give me some examples of disguised coverages? Thanks.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

gee, it looks like the post has been given a sticky by the mods. I've never posted anything worthy of a "sticky" before.

 

[TripleOption]

Triple Option, what kind of base defense do you run? Also, I'm really interested in stemming and disguising defensive coverages. If you wouldn't mind, could you give me some examples of disguised coverages? Thanks.

We play in a run heavy League. We were a 5-3 Stack/5-2 Monster but moved to a 4-4 near the end of the year.

The 5-2 is a PAIN when you don't have 2 good ILB's. Kind of like the Pats when they had Beisel and Chad Brown manning the Inside LB spots. Your defense looks like a sieve. The 4-4 tightened us up.

We played 99% Cover 3 because you need an 8 man front. We did play some C/2 and C/4. In the past, we have played C/3, C/4, C/1, C/2 and 2 Lock (2 Man). We just consolidated because of limited practice time and the KISS principle.

C/4 and C/2 lock look like C/2. C/3 and C/1 are so similar that it's nearly impossible to tell the difference in HS presnap. We did a lot of rolling from C/2 to C/3 in the early part of the year but because of injuries we just scrapped a lot of our "snazzy" stuff.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

do you play 1-gap or 2-gap?

I guess going to the 4-4 left only your field safety on the field when you ran your base. Did having 4 LBs ease the load as opposed to only having 2 or 3 LB trying to stay in their assignments from sideline-to-sideline?

Also you mentioned that last year you called 99% Cover 3 out of a 4-4. You also mentioned the slant/arrow combo as a money play against Cover 3. Are there other really good money "route pattern combos" against the Cover 3?

 

[TripleOption]

do you play 1-gap or 2-gap?

Also you mentioned that last year you called 99% Cover 3 out of a 4-4. You also mentioned the slant/arrow combo as a money play against Cover 3. Are there other really good money "route pattern combos" against the Cover 3?

When I was in HS about 20 years ago, we played 2 Gap. I was a 2 gap DT in a 5-2 Defense. It is a real pain.

We play one gap, VERY few teams two gap anymore, some teams will 2 gap their Nose however.

Draw up a Coverage and you will see where it is weak. C/3 has vertical seams, horizontal seams behind the LB's and in front of the Safeties. You can also High/Low the FS (Post/In). The weak Flat is pretty good as well. You can use Trips to stress the SS, lift off the CB and high low the SS.

 

[bokonon]

Just want to say I've enjoyed reading this thread- it's great to get this level of knowledgable insight on a MB.

Also a side question for the X&O experts: I'm familiar with the basic difference between 1-gap and 2-gap defensive assignments, and I always seem to hear about 1-gap or 2-gap defensive styles as if they are mutually exclusive. But can't they be combined in a single defensive scheme, where some players have 2-gap responsibilities and others don't? Anyone know of any coaches/teams that do this, or reasons why it wouldn't work?

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

Draw up a Coverage and you will see where it is weak. C/3 has vertical seams, horizontal seams behind the LB's and in front of the Safeties. You can also High/Low the FS (Post/In). The weak Flat is pretty good as well. You can use Trips to stress the SS, lift off the CB and high low the SS.

For anybody that is interested, here is a fascinating article on some plays that Charlie Weiss uses.

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2006/05/packaging-concepts-using-route.html

Maybe TripleOption can correct me, but if the coverage is cover-2 (MOFO), the QB looks at the "z" on the post. If the Middle LB covers it, the RB should be open underneath over the middle. If he's not, the 3rd option is the WR curl.

Now if the coverage is cover-3/cover-1 (MOFC) the QB will look for the corner first, then the WR curl, then to the RB in the flat underneath. Right?

 

[TripleOption]

For anybody that is interested, here is a fascinating article on some plays that Charlie Weiss uses.

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2006/05/packaging-concepts-using-route.html

Maybe TripleOption can correct me, but if the coverage is cover-2 (MOFO), the QB looks at the "z" on the post. If the Middle LB covers it, the RB should be open underneath over the middle. If he's not, the 3rd option is the WR curl.

Now if the coverage is cover-3/cover-1 (MOFC) the QB will look for the corner first, then the WR curl, then to the RB in the flat underneath. Right?

That guy has an exceptional Blog on passing concepts. It's fascinating.

 

[TripleOption]

Just want to say I've enjoyed reading this thread- it's great to get this level of knowledgable insight on a MB.

Also a side question for the X&O experts: I'm familiar with the basic difference between 1-gap and 2-gap defensive assignments, and I always seem to hear about 1-gap or 2-gap defensive styles as if they are mutually exclusive. But can't they be combined in a single defensive scheme, where some players have 2-gap responsibilities and others don't? Anyone know of any coaches/teams that do this, or reasons why it wouldn't work?

I think that happens sometimes, but they are different technques and must be coached differently. Do I think the Pats have Defenses where the DT's are told that they have one gap and hit it? Sure.