Prediction: Ras-I Dowling is the new starting S

[patriot lifer]

I understood why the Patriots converted E. Wilson to safety in 03. They were in a pinch having been unable to redo Lawyer Milloy's contract and were too cap strapped to get another veteran. But, as successful as that move was at the time, you can argue that the move was detrimental in the long-term. When the patriots made the move with Wilson, they had Ty Law, Ty Poole,and Asante Samuel to play corner. Two years later when both Law and Poole were gone and Duane Starks was playing corner. I wished the patriots had left Wilson at corner to continue his development and partner with Samuel and Randall Gay.

If you think Dowling will become a quality starting CB, moving him to safety is a short-sighted move which this team with veteran options and cap space to burn doesn't have to make. Do you really want to be one injury away from Darius Butler being your nickel back?

Well, I think after winning 2 Superbowls, it is hard to make the argument that it wasn't a good move.

Don't forget, when BM came into the league in 2007, we played him at different db positions to get him experience in an otherwise loaded secondary, and look how he turned out...oh wait.

It think the point is that there is only so much long-term that you can think about in the NFL. There are so many moving parts and confounding variables at play that a short-sightedness isn't always a terrible thing. Because who knows, maybe playing Dowling at safety will be better for the player.

 

[patchick]

+1 for Molden- since we're talking about college CBs who projected as possible NFL safeties, he should be mentioned as well. Barrett, Molden, and Dowling are all potential answers that we have on the roster- can't really gauge much more than that until we see them on the field.

FWIW, Barrett, Molden, and Dowling are all bigger AND faster AND stronger than Meriweather.

(Back before the 2007 draft I kept insisting that the Pats wouldn't take Meriweather because their 1st-round picks are always prototypical athletes for the position, and he definitely wasn't. Wrong again, me!)

 

[Ring 6]

FWIW, Barrett, Molden, and Dowling are all bigger AND faster AND stronger than Meriweather.

(Back before the 2007 draft I kept insisting that the Pats wouldn't take Meriweather because their 1st-round picks are always prototypical athletes for the position, and he definitely wasn't. Wrong again, me!)

I would dispute faster.

 

[BradyFTW!]

If Wilson were able to be better at corner he could have been moved back.
I don't have a problem with Butler as a nickel. Think about this: When did we have a nickel corner people on this board didnt say sucked?

I'm also okay with Butler as a nickel corner in the event of injury (I think he played well late last year and in the preseason), but yeah... I'm higher on him than most. At the very least, he's better than Wilhite. More importantly, if the Pats decide that Dowling is the best option as a starting safety, then it should go without saying that having a capable starter at safety is more important than having the best #4 CB you can.

 

[JackBauer]

I'm also okay with Butler as a nickel corner (I think he played well late last year and in the preseason), but yeah... I'm higher on him than most.

Agreed. I thought Butler acquitted himself reasonably well during the preseason. It'll be a nice boost for the nickel if he's out there instead of Arrington.

 

[JackBauer]

FWIW, 40 times:

Meriweather: 4.49
Barrett: 4.34 (really?)
Dowling: 4.46
Molden: 4.39

Barrett is a lot faster than I expected him to be...

 

[patriot lifer]

I would dispute faster.

FWIW, 40 times:

Meriweather: 4.49
Barrett: 4.34 (really?)
Dowling: 4.46
Molden: 4.39

Barrett is a lot faster than I expected him to be...

I think the dispute would be that they might move faster off the field, but players have to read, react, and navigate through the congestion on the field. For example, a guy like Spikes may be slow in a simple footrace, but on the football field he has instincts, recognition, and the ability to shed blocks that make him faster in live gameplay. Does this apply to BM? idk.

 

[BelichickFan]

FWIW, Barrett, Molden, and Dowling are all bigger AND faster AND stronger than Meriweather.

(Back before the 2007 draft I kept insisting that the Pats wouldn't take Meriweather because their 1st-round picks are always prototypical athletes for the position, and he definitely wasn't. Wrong again, me!)

I would dispute faster.

Why ?

Combine numbers (Barrett first, Meriweather second) :

40 yd : 4.34, 4.47
20 yd : 2.50, 2.61
10 yd : 1.50, 1.52
Shuttle : 4.27, 4.33
3 Cone : 7.07, 7.06
Long Jump : 10'1", 9'3"
Vert Jump : 31.5", 35"
225 reps : 17, 11

 

[Marqui]

Agreed. I thought Butler acquitted himself reasonably well during the preseason. It'll be a nice boost for the nickel if he's out there instead of Arrington.

Has there been any indication during the preseason that the coaching staff has Butler higher on the depth chart than Arrington (serious question)?

 

[BradyFTW!]

FWIW, 40 times:

Meriweather: 4.49
Barrett: 4.34 (really?)
Dowling: 4.46
Molden: 4.39

Barrett is a lot faster than I expected him to be...

Trying to find a physical comparable for Barrett; the best that I can come up with so far is a less athletic Taylor Mays, who had similar but better combine/pro day measurables compared to Barrett.

Barrett:
Height: 6016
Weight: 223
40 Yrd Dash: 4.34
20 Yrd Dash: 2.50
10 Yrd Dash: 1.50
Vertical Jump: 31 1/2
Broad Jump: 10'01"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.27
3-Cone Drill: 7.07

Mays:
Height: 6031
Weight: 230
40 Yrd Dash: 4.31
20 Yrd Dash: 2.46
10 Yrd Dash: 1.45
Vertical Jump: 41
Broad Jump: 10'05"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.24
3-Cone Drill: 6.98

For the record, I don't necessarily find this encouraging, since I'm not a Mays fan at all. Guy's a hell of an athlete, though.

 

[Ring 6]

Has there been any indication during the preseason that the coaching staff has Butler higher on the depth chart than Arrington (serious question)?

It kind of seemed like they played similar roles and with similar groupings during the preseason. If you didn't know about last year and based it on preseason playing time alone, it would be hard to tell who was ahead of who. IMO.

 

[Ring 6]

Trying to find a physical comparable for Barrett; the best that I can come up with so far is a less athletic Taylor Mays, who had significantly better combine/pro day measurables than Barrett did.

Barrett:
Height: 6016
Weight: 223
40 Yrd Dash: 4.34
20 Yrd Dash: 2.50
10 Yrd Dash: 1.50
Vertical Jump: 31 1/2
Broad Jump: 10'01"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.27
3-Cone Drill: 7.07

Mays:
Height: 6031
Weight: 230
40 Yrd Dash: 4.31
20 Yrd Dash: 2.46
10 Yrd Dash: 1.45
Vertical Jump: 41
Broad Jump: 10'05"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.24
3-Cone Drill: 6.98

For the record, I don't find this encouraging, since I'm not a Mays fan at all.

I disagree with your assessment of Mays (not the not a fan part) but to me he is an exceptional athlete who just has no football instincts.

 

[BelichickFan]

Trying to find a physical comparable for Barrett; the best that I can come up with so far is a less athletic Taylor Mays, who had significantly better combine/pro day measurables than Barrett did.

Barrett:
Height: 6016
Weight: 223
40 Yrd Dash: 4.34
20 Yrd Dash: 2.50
10 Yrd Dash: 1.50
Vertical Jump: 31 1/2
Broad Jump: 10'01"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.27
3-Cone Drill: 7.07

Mays:
Height: 6031
Weight: 230
40 Yrd Dash: 4.31
20 Yrd Dash: 2.46
10 Yrd Dash: 1.45
Vertical Jump: 41
Broad Jump: 10'05"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.24
3-Cone Drill: 6.98

For the record, I don't find this encouraging, since I'm not a Mays fan at all.

But Mays is a kick ass athlete and lousy football player.

How about Barrett vs. Eric Berry ? This comp works fairly well as they both win some.

Barrett:
Height: 6016
Weight: 223
40 Yrd Dash: 4.34
20 Yrd Dash: 2.50
10 Yrd Dash: 1.50
Vertical Jump: 31 1/2
Broad Jump: 10'01"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.27
3-Cone Drill: 7.07

Berry:
Height: 5115
Weight: 211
40 Yrd Dash: 4.40
20 Yrd Dash: 2.51
10 Yrd Dash: 1.54
Vertical Jump: 43
Broad Jump: 10'10"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.23
3-Cone Drill: 6.80

 

[Ring 6]

FWIW, 40 times:

Meriweather: 4.49
Barrett: 4.34 (really?)
Dowling: 4.46
Molden: 4.39

Barrett is a lot faster than I expected him to be...

But 40 times from 1 day 4 years ago aren't an exact science of who is faster.
Are we really saying 4.46 vs 4.49 (or even 4.39) is such a difference there is no debate?

 

[Ring 6]

But Mays is a kick ass athlete and lousy football player.

How about Barrett vs. Eric Berry ?

Barrett:
Height: 6016
Weight: 223
40 Yrd Dash: 4.34
20 Yrd Dash: 2.50
10 Yrd Dash: 1.50
Vertical Jump: 31 1/2
Broad Jump: 10'01"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.27
3-Cone Drill: 7.07

Berry:
Height: 5115
Weight: 211
40 Yrd Dash: 4.40
20 Yrd Dash: 2.51
10 Yrd Dash: 1.54
Vertical Jump: 43
Broad Jump: 10'10"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.23
3-Cone Drill: 6.80

How do 2 guys with such similar numbers have a difference of a foot in vertical jump?
That is bizarre.
Barrett got about 2 1/2 feet off the ground and Berry 3 1/2 feet.
Imagine having a jumping contest with your buddy and losing by an entire foot.

 

[BelichickFan]

But 40 times from 1 day 4 years ago aren't an exact science of who is faster.
Are we really saying 4.46 vs 4.49 (or even 4.39) is such a difference there is no debate?

I realize your numbers are compared to Dowling but if you read the ProFW draft preview on Barrett, it wasn't just one day, he was always considered a sensational size/speed guy who dropped badly on draft day due to a lousy senior year with problems getting along with the new coach. Athleticism isn't the issue which is why I said I don't want to peg him as a pounder despite his size.

 

[BelichickFan]

How do 2 guys with such similar numbers have a difference of a foot in vertical jump?
That is bizarre.

Berry is clearly more explosive and quicker with Barrett having a small edge in straight line speed. Berry would be better covering a slot receiver although we'd likely have a CB in for that but Barrett should be able to cover a ton of ground on pass plays.

 

[patchick]

Are we really saying 4.46 vs 4.49 (or even 4.39) is such a difference there is no debate?

Andy, the 4.46 for Dowling is from a Combine run where he pulled up lame. The time isn't representative for him (though the injury, alas, is!) At his pro day he ran 4.33 & 4.36.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, the 4.46 for Dowling is from a Combine run where he pulled up lame. The time isn't representative for him (though the injury, alas, is!) At his pro day he ran 4.33 & 4.36.

Understood, but a 40 time aside, I didn't see Meriwhether as a slow safety.
He worked at corner here. There may be more to the story of his time too.

 

[drew4008]

I don't see how anyone can have any disputes regarding Meriweather's speed. And I mean on-field football speed here. 90% of the time he was actually involved in a play on the field, he was finishing up the play and was there WAY late.

Brandon Meriweather was a terrible safety for us... I don't know why more people aren't comfortable saying that. He dished out some big hits (half of which yielded a penalty and/or fine) and got the D fired up a bit... but for him to be called a "Pro Bowl" safety is as big a joke as any as far as the Pro Bowl goes.