PREDICTION: Caldwell or Gaffney will be gone this week...

[sieglo]

The point of this thread is that one of the vet WRs will be cut EARLY this week so as to catch on elsewhere. Take a pill and/or a breath.

If anyone (not including Childress or Kight) gets the axe it will be Washington.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Most of what you say I can accept, but your opening line is the most antithetical thing I've ever read from you, when it comes to the Patriots way.

Say what?
DB said that Washington's contribution on STs was not noticeable and that he (DB) would keep better ST guys ahead of a 5th place at best WR. Those other ST guys also provide needed depth at other (defensive) positions where we have less depth. I believe that that is precisely how BB looks at it. In what specific way is it antithetical?

 

[sieglo]

Both make the team.

But if it came to keeping one or the other, Gaffney's my man.

Here's my reasoning.

1) Gaffney knows the offense just as well if not better than Caldwell. 20+ catches in the post-season and a stellar pre-season says I'm right.

2) Caldwell has been pretty lackluster so far. He looked better yesterday, but that was only noticeable because he's been non-existent. Kelly Washington has made a bigger impression than Reche has.

3) Consistancy. Not Caldwell's middle name.

4) Caldwell has some value. The guy is the 5th receiver right now. I'd rather trade him for a pick.

In the end, I think he stays along with Gaffney as further insurance should Stallworth or Moss's hammy's cause problems during the season.

Sorry for the lack of love for Reche, as it's not a lack of respect, just reality.

Idiotic.

1) Caldwell did fine in the postseason, especially versus the Chargers where he made key plays that saved the game. And he was lined up against playoff teams' best corner, unlike Gaffney.

2) Good thing we're not judging Brady on his first two preseason outings. Otherwise we'd cut him too, because he looked pretty lackluster.

3) Consistency? Caldwell was the top receiver on the team last year. He consistently got open and he consistently caught the ball. Two dropped passes in the Colts game is nothing. Hell, Brady had 3 INTs versus San Diego. That's much worse. Cut his ass!

4) No argument there. Caldwell has value. More than Gaffney (especially now that Gaffney is injured) and more than Washington.

 

[Slagathor]

Idiotic.

1) Caldwell did fine in the postseason, especially versus the Chargers where he made key plays that saved the game. And he was lined up against playoff teams' best corner, unlike Gaffney.

<<<He did not have a fine post-season! It was adequate AT-BEST, and made way too many mistakes as a #1 receiver.>>>

2) Good thing we're not judging Brady on his first two preseason outings. Otherwise we'd cut him too, because he looked pretty lackluster.

<<<That is an idiotic statement. Let's compare apples to apples here.>>>

3) Consistency? Caldwell was the top receiver on the team last year. He consistently got open and he consistently caught the ball. Two dropped passes in the Colts game is nothing. Hell, Brady had 3 INTs versus San Diego. That's much worse. Cut his ass!

<<<He was the teams top receiver by default. He consistantly got open and consistantly caught the ball? The stats and dropped passes prove otherwise.>>>

4) No argument there. Caldwell has value. More than Gaffney (especially now that Gaffney is injured) and more than Washington.

<<<Caldwell has value as a 3rd or 4th receiver on OTHER teams. Not this one.

How dare you call my post idiotic and post this junk.

I understand the "somewhat sad" unconditional love some folks have developed for Caldwell but any keen observer of the game can see Gaffney has a much greater upside than Reche.>>>

 

[Rob0729]

Although I think the Pats will carry six WRs at least to start the year, I think Caldwell and Gaffney's experience with the offense trumps what Washington can do with special teams. Although Welker and Stallworth are picking up the offense, there were several times when they still seemed out of place. Randy Moss has only had six days of practice so he will probably have similiar troubles. From most accounts, Washington has had more problems than anyone picking up the offense.

I think Gaffney and Caldwell will have decent size roles at the beginning of the season because they know the offense and have timing with Brady.

 

[DaBruinz]

<<<Caldwell has value as a 3rd or 4th receiver on OTHER teams. Not this one.

How dare you call my post idiotic and post this junk.

I understand the "somewhat sad" unconditional love some folks have developed for Caldwell but any keen observer of the game can see Gaffney has a much greater upside than Reche.>>>

How can an injured player have a much greater upside than one who is available to be on the field? Gaffney is on crutches. Could he be off them in a week? Yep. But its probably another 2-4 after that before he could start playing again... That would make him dead weight to the Pats, taking up a roster spot that they could be using.

Caldwell has value to THIS TEAM as the 4th receiver and someone who could step up in a pinch and start. I don't want the Pats to have to rely on him as a starter, but I didn't want the Pats to have to rely on Troy Brown to be their number 1 receiver back in 2001.

As someone who has liked Caldwell since his time in SD, I can honestly say that Gaffney was his equal before Gaffney got hurt. However, Gaffney is now out and the Pats have been trying to get Washington reps to see what he can do because they already know what Caldwell is capable of. It remains to be seen what happens.

 

[biffman]

Although I think the Pats will carry six WRs at least to start the year, I think Caldwell and Gaffney's experience with the offense trumps what Washington can do with special teams. Although Welker and Stallworth are picking up the offense, there were several times when they still seemed out of place. Randy Moss has only had six days of practice so he will probably have similiar troubles. From most accounts, Washington has had more problems than anyone picking up the offense.

I think Gaffney and Caldwell will have decent size roles at the beginning of the season because they know the offense and have timing with Brady.

I've liked what I've seen from Washington. I think you're selling him short.

 

[sieglo]

<<<Caldwell has value as a 3rd or 4th receiver on OTHER teams. Not this one.

How dare you call my post idiotic and post this junk.

I understand the "somewhat sad" unconditional love some folks have developed for Caldwell but any keen observer of the game can see Gaffney has a much greater upside than Reche.>>>

I am defending Caldwell because nobody else will and to me the whole issue it seems pretty obvious. There is a large body of evidence that Caldwell works in this offense. There is a much smaller body of evidence that Gaffney does. And just claiming it's "obvious" that Gaffney has more "upside" doesn't make it so. It generally looks to me like Caldwell runs crisper routes and creates more separation, and from combine results I'm not sure that physically Gaffney has any real upside over Caldwell.

I think both will make the team, but Caldwell will play ahead of Gaffney.

 

[Slagathor]

How can an injured player have a much greater upside than one who is available to be on the field? Gaffney is on crutches. Could he be off them in a week? Yep. But its probably another 2-4 after that before he could start playing again... That would make him dead weight to the Pats, taking up a roster spot that they could be using.

Caldwell has value to THIS TEAM as the 4th receiver and someone who could step up in a pinch and start. I don't want the Pats to have to rely on him as a starter, but I didn't want the Pats to have to rely on Troy Brown to be their number 1 receiver back in 2001.

As someone who has liked Caldwell since his time in SD, I can honestly say that Gaffney was his equal before Gaffney got hurt. However, Gaffney is now out and the Pats have been trying to get Washington reps to see what he can do because they already know what Caldwell is capable of. It remains to be seen what happens.

DB, all things being equal and eliminating the injury, to me Gaffney is the better option.

It's a given that Gaffney being injured diminshes his value over Caldwell greatly.

It's nice to have that depth on the team, but I'd much rather have Gaffney as the 4th WR option.

 

[DaBruinz]

DB, all things being equal and eliminating the injury, to me Gaffney is the better option.

It's a given that Gaffney being injured diminshes his value over Caldwell greatly.

It's nice to have that depth on the team, but I'd much rather have Gaffney as the 4th WR option.

But all things aren't equal and Gaffney is injured. And it remains to be seen whether or not he'll be available at all this season... Being on crutches is never a good thing with only one pre-season game left.

 

[Slagathor]

I am defending Caldwell because nobody else will and to me the whole issue it seems pretty obvious. There is a large body of evidence that Caldwell works in this offense. There is a much smaller body of evidence that Gaffney does. And just claiming it's "obvious" that Gaffney has more "upside" doesn't make it so. It generally looks to me like Caldwell runs crisper routes and creates more separation, and from combine results I'm not sure that physically Gaffney has any real upside over Caldwell.

I think both will make the team, but Caldwell will play ahead of Gaffney.

Caldwell's body of work is not that much larger. A half season plus training camps.

That being said, Gaffney has progressed much further in less time.

Gaffney also doesn't make me wince when the ball is thrown his way and seems to create extra yards after the catch.

In any receiver, dependability is the greatest asset and Gaffney seems ahead in that dept.

I don't hate Caldwell or diminish the good things he has done. I justam 100% convinced that Gaffney is better........when uninjured...

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

The notion that one of them will be released so they have time to catch on with another team is silly. That's something that you do if you already know you're going to cut the guy (which NE doesn't) and if the guy has no trade value (it's debatable, but they could probably get at least a conditional pick for one of them). Most often I just see it as windrow dressing to the truth; "we didn't want him anymore."

They'll hold onto them until they know who they want to keep going forward and they don't feel they could get anything for them. The needs of the team come first, and will not be put aside in order to "do right by the player."

 

[Slagathor]

But all things aren't equal and Gaffney is injured. And it remains to be seen whether or not he'll be available at all this season... Being on crutches is never a good thing with only one pre-season game left.

You're right. I'll take Caldwell over another receiver who happens to have a season ending injury anyday. Congratulations Reche, you won that battle fair and square.

But the post's question was operating under the assumption that both players are healthy.

In that case, Reche does not beat out Gaffney.

Sad to say that as great as our WR corp seems to be this year, it would have been A LOT (no exagerration) better with a healthy Gaffney.

 

[patsox23]

Say what?
DB said that Washington's contribution on STs was not noticeable and that he (DB) would keep better ST guys ahead of a 5th place at best WR. Those other ST guys also provide needed depth at other (defensive) positions where we have less depth. I believe that that is precisely how BB looks at it. In what specific way is it antithetical?

I SAID HIS OPENING LINE - THE OPENING LINE. Like, ya know, THE FIRST ONE. Where he says that Caldwell makes the team based on what he did for the team LAST YEAR. I even said I agreed with the rest ("most") of what he said.

Please let's all feel free to read.

 

[patsox23]

Really? Most antithetical? Well, you are entitled to your opinion.

But you also seem to be ignoring that Gaffney is on crutches. The Pats have very few options with Gaffney. They can either carry an injured player until he's healthy (could be 6 weeks, could be 2), IR him, or IR him and reach an injury settlement while agreeing to bring him back when he's healthy. Which is what the Pats did with Larry Centers a few years ago.

I don't know if the Pats have the luxury of just carrying dead weight. It will be interesting to see what BB does.

Good point about Gaffney and how hurt he is. I get that, of course. My point about your antithetical opening line had to do with Reche making the team because of what he brought to the team last year.

 

[patsox23]

I do not agree with that at all.
Belichick will do what is best for the team. If a player has no chance of making the team, then he will accept that and move them on early. But he will NEVER get rid of a guy before he knows he wont be keeping him out of some altruistic motive people seem wont to associate with him.

Right, which is what I said. (Or, at least, intended.) In no way is this a thread about how Belichick will do that if it's not best for the team. Good God, I must've somehow really fouled up my post if that's what you guys are getting from it. Did I really say that? I think it's a given that Belichick won't do it unless it's the right move for the team. I just think at THIS point in pre-season the staff has a pretty good sense of the WR's - and isn't likely to get much more information in this week's game.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I am defending Caldwell because nobody else will and to me the whole issue it seems pretty obvious. There is a large body of evidence that Caldwell works in this offense. There is a much smaller body of evidence that Gaffney does. And just claiming it's "obvious" that Gaffney has more "upside" doesn't make it so. It generally looks to me like Caldwell runs crisper routes and creates more separation, and from combine results I'm not sure that physically Gaffney has any real upside over Caldwell.

I think both will make the team, but Caldwell will play ahead of Gaffney.

I'll pose one question. Please rank the WRs in terms of blocking for the run.

I posit it as Caldwell, Washington, and then a tie Stallworth/Gaffney, followed by Welker, Moss; not including the Puppies.

Note: A 7th rounder without acceptable speed, Givens, made the team because he helped the running game. Coaches watch for the little things...

I haven't really seen Dante run block, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt and ranked him with Gaffney which is just mediocre. Welker is willing to try, but I've seen him bounce off of players he tried to block. Moss is usually asked to "phantom block " by taking a coverage guy with him on a route, rather than really deliver a block, but this is based on his play before joining the Pats. Since he hasn't partiicpated in a preseason game there is no evidence to change it.

 

[patsox23]

I am defending Caldwell because nobody else will.

I, too, am a fan of Caldwell, and what's interesting is that I meant for the thrust of this thread to be more about the fact that I think the WR may be settled in the mind of the staff and so, given we have vets like Gaff, Caldwell (and Washington, for that matter) who are capable NFL wideouts, it's likely (IMO) that one of them will be gone and that it will come early in the week.

It's just a prediction, it could be wildly off-mark, which some of you have suggested. HOWEVER, this thread was never supposed to be about specifically damning ANY receiver. And, again, I've been a Caldwell defender for a loooooong, looooooong time, as well.

 

[patsox23]

The notion that one of them will be released so they have time to catch on with another team is silly. That's something that you do if you already know you're going to cut the guy (which NE doesn't) and if the guy has no trade value (it's debatable, but they could probably get at least a conditional pick for one of them).

First of all, this thread is not predicting that a guy will be CUT, rather that he will be GONE. "Cut or traded." Secondly, what makes the notion that one of them would be released early so they have time to catch on with another team "silly?" Are you saying Belichick never does this? 'Cause he does. CONSTANTLY. Ya know how I know so quickly? 'Cause he did it LAST WEEK.

People, if I somehow didn't phrase this thread correctly or specifically enough, I apologize. But can we please drop this idea that somehow I randomly have decided that Belichick would do this IN DETRIMENT TO THE TEAM, just as a "favor?" I think I have SOME credibility here to know that that clearly would never, ever, in a million years be the case.

 

[patsox23]

I'll pose one question. Please rank the WRs in terms of blocking for the run.

I posit it as Caldwell, Washington, and then a tie Stallworth/Gaffney, followed by Welker, Moss; not including the Puppies.

Note: A 7th rounder without acceptable speed, Givens, made the team because he helped the running game. Coaches watch for the little things...

I haven't really seen Dante run block, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt and ranked him with Gaffney which is just mediocre. Welker is willing to try, but I've seen him bounce off of players he tried to block. Moss is usually asked to "phantom block " by taking a coverage guy with him on a route, rather than really deliver a block, but this is based on his play before joining the Pats. Since he hasn't partiicpated in a preseason game there is no evidence to change it.

GREAT post. An important aspect to all of this that I had glossed over. Thanks for your two cents.