Post Revis Myths and Spin

[Koma]

Defense never got off the field in the super bowl in 2011, TOP was a huge issue and a huge reason why we lost. Painting that defense as "not bad" is a joke on many levels.

Not disagreeing about the quality of the 2011 defense, but Brady being called for intentional grounding in the end zone on the Patriots 1st offensive play basically gave the Giants an 11 minute advantage in TOP to start the game.

 

[Oswlek]

3rd down conversions allowed

2014- 84 of 209
2011- 87 of 202

In fairness to 2014, they were a lot better in the second half than they were in the first half.

But in fairness to 2011, they actually allowed ~5 less points per game in the playoffs than 2014 did.

But in fairness to 2014, they made the plays when the had to, not only the pick, but three stops in the fourth quarter.

But in fairness to 2011...

As Mr. Weathers said above, the 2014 defense wasn't just the 2011 trash with Revis and Browner. Looking ahead, even if I'm generous and I say that Anderson/Carter/Nink is equal to Jones/Sheard/Nink, DT depth is vastly improved, the safeties are better (perhaps much better) and the LBs are superior by orders of magnitude. And that's before the draft and any subsequent FA pickups.

Where can we get a Rosey Colvin, "calm down" around these parts?

 

[EatSleepWinRepeat]

Weren't the 2011 Pats 8 yards shy of being the WORST NFL PASS DEFENSE in LEAGUE HISTORY? Hard to take your other points seriously when your bias/homersim comes through so glaringly in your very first paragraph...

 

[Galeb]

Weren't the 2011 Pats 8 yards shy of being the WORST NFL PASS DEFENSE in LEAGUE HISTORY? Hard to take your other points seriously when your bias/homersim comes through so glaringly in your very first paragraph...

Had the 2011 Pats D give up less yards, they might have made the playoffs.

YARDS =/= POINTS.

 

[skinnydog]

I can't believe this is even an argument. The 2011 pass defense sucked. It was bad. It was bad against a weak schedule. The 2011 offense helped out the 2011 offense immensely. The 2011 team ran the best no huddle hurry up offense in the history of the game. The 2014 defense really wasn't the 2014 defense until about week 8 when Browner had been integrated into the game plan and had his condition up to NFL levels. From that point they went up against the league's best QBs and offenses and basically won the battle. They could make third down stops, they made amazing half time adjustments and just stoned teams in the second half game after game. No comparison

 

[Ross12]

with McCourty over top and a bunch of CB's on the roster who have started games and played vs #1 WR's I think they can find a way to be 17th vs the pass

This point jumped out at me actually and I think it's a good one. In past seasons, Fletcher & McClain have been tasked with taking on the opponent's #1 guy and have been successful at times (and obviously unsuccessful other times). Dennard and Arrington have taken on #1's in the past too, and Butler flashed in the SB covering Kearse. You can't point to any of these guys and say "he's gonna take the top WR", but damn near all of them have done it, and that's a great thing IMO. They can learn from each others' experiences. The team may not have a #1, #2, and #3 CB (skill-wise), but they could maybe have three #2's who all have #1 experience. When the goal is "bend-but-don't-break", that's probably a pretty good thing.

 

[50-yard-line]

I can't believe this is even an argument. The 2011 pass defense sucked. It was bad. It was bad against a weak schedule. The 2011 offense helped out the 2011 offense immensely. The 2011 team ran the best no huddle hurry up offense in the history of the game. The 2014 defense really wasn't the 2014 defense until about week 8 when Browner had been integrated into the game plan and had his condition up to NFL levels. From that point they went up against the league's best QBs and offenses and basically won the battle. They could make third down stops, they made amazing half time adjustments and just stoned teams in the second half game after game. No comparison

Just a quibble, but a no-huddle offense HURTS your defense because it skews time of possession to your opponent.

 

[Rob0729]

Weren't the 2011 Pats 8 yards shy of being the WORST NFL PASS DEFENSE in LEAGUE HISTORY? Hard to take your other points seriously when your bias/homersim comes through so glaringly in your very first paragraph...

And everyone marveled how the Pats were able to overcome that with a strong red zone defense and the ability to turn over the ball.

Please name one game where a team lost the game by outscoring their opponent, but giving up more yards.

The Pats played "bend, don't break" which meant they gave up a ton of yards, but not a ton of points. It wasn't a great defense, but it was good enough to get the Pats to the Super Bowl and close to win it.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Defense never got off the field in the super bowl in 2011, TOP was a huge issue and a huge reason why we lost. Painting that defense as "not bad" is a joke on many levels.

TOP had squat to do with losing.

Welker dropping the game sealing pass was over and above and beyond why we lost.

Before Welker, a hurt Gronk prevented that game from being a complete blowout.

This is very simple

Healthy Gronk= SB 46 blowout

Hurt Gronk= SB 49 loss

 

[SHOWTIME15]

...and that team did not have Chandler Jones, Jamie Collins or Donte Hightower.

People seem to think that by adding Revis to the 2011 defense wins that Super Bowl. It doesn't.

and DMAC was playing corner, which is not his strong suit. our linebackers this past year was world's better than the linebacking corps in 2011.

 

[PATS16N0]

In fairness to 2014, they were a lot better in the second half than they were in the first half.

But in fairness to 2011, they actually allowed ~5 less points per game in the playoffs than 2014 did.

But in fairness to 2014, they made the plays when the had to, not only the pick, but three stops in the fourth quarter.

But in fairness to 2011...

As Mr. Weathers said above, the 2014 defense wasn't just the 2011 trash with Revis and Browner. Looking ahead, even if I'm generous and I say that Anderson/Carter/Nink is equal to Jones/Sheard/Nink, DT depth is vastly improved, the safeties are better (perhaps much better) and the LBs are superior by orders of magnitude. And that's before the draft and any subsequent FA pickups.

Where can we get a Rosey Colvin, "calm down" around these parts?

A little skewed from Belichick basically curb stomping Tebowmania forever in the Divisional Round.

 

[Mark Morse]

Patriots defense had three straight stops in the 4th qtr of the super bowl and that my friend was defense! Forget what stats say ... the defense held and turned the ball over do the offense could give the team the lead! In the end .... because of Browner and Butler the defense held and preserved the win!

 

[skinnydog]

Just a quibble, but a no-huddle offense HURTS your defense because it skews time of possession to your opponent.

I don't think that was true in terms of the 2011 offense. It wasn't a 2 minute offense. They got to the line fast forcing the other defense to keep theory same personnel on the field. Brady generally took up most of the play clock before the ball was snapped. Their pace of play was fast, they still took time off the clock on offense.

 

[DarrylS]

This validates why I find myself switching the radio all of the time, as the incessant babble about how we are doomed is tiring/borish.

IMO one of the starting CB's next year is not yet on this team..

One of the interesting arguments that I have heard by the mediots is that if we signed Revis for that much money, that we would have difficulty next year as Solder, Hightower, Collins and Jones are due... so then they diverge into callers who claim that they could do this and the hosts agree, but when someone asks them how it would work there is usually silence..

Another argument that I hear is that we should have countered the Jets offer to drive up the price, how about if we did and the Jets did not counter??

I think that BB and his crew knew on Monday that they were not going to play the same game as the Jets did.. so they backed away. All this proves is that the Jets were tampering, and hopefully heads roll because of it.

 

[skinnydog]

What they should have done was announce early they were picking up the 20 mil option. They should have then used it as a starting point for a signing bonus and a restructure. that would have minimized the effect other teams like the Jets could have had on the negotiations. Instead they (Jonathan I think) announced that it was a placeholder only and Revis knew he would become a free agent. that gave him all the leverage. If necessary, then yes the should have picked up option and dealt with the ugly cap situation for this year. Yes, the cap hit would suck, but for this year only. They could have kept the band together so to speak for one more year and taken another run at the Super Bowl. And no this would not prevent them from keeping Chandler and Hightower and Collins as those contracts could all be dealt with next year when the 25 mil cap charge came off the books. It would delay their ability to take care of those contracts but in no way prevent them from working them out next year. Yes, a 25 mil cap hit would be ugly.

 

[1960Pats]

I don't have a myth or spin to add to the discussion. All I have is the post Revis truth. He's gone and we're on to 2015.

 

[RIpats88]

What they should have done was announce early they were picking up the 20 mil option. They should have then used it as a starting point for a signing bonus and a restructure. that would have minimized the effect other teams like the Jets could have had on the negotiations. Instead they (Jonathan I think) announced that it was a placeholder only and Revis knew he would become a free agent. that gave him all the leverage. If necessary, then yes the should have picked up option and dealt with the ugly cap situation for this year. Yes, the cap hit would suck, but for this year only. They could have kept the band together so to speak for one more year and taken another run at the Super Bowl. And no this would not prevent them from keeping Chandler and Hightower and Collins as those contracts could all be dealt with next year when the 25 mil cap charge came off the books. It would delay their ability to take care of those contracts but in no way prevent them from working them out next year. Yes, a 25 mil cap hit would be ugly.

Patriots will still make another run at the superbowl this year like the have the past 4 years in a row.

one misconception is people saying "this will be like 2011" yet, people forget how devoid of talent our 2011 team was. our linebackers were mayo/spikes/ninkovich. we had Edelman/matthew slater at corner, and ihedibo/chung at safety. no hightower, Collins, chandler, now we have an all-pro safety back there. and while not "elite" the corners we have are better than Edelman/slater

 

[RobertWeathers]

What they should have done was announce early they were picking up the 20 mil option. They should have then used it as a starting point for a signing bonus and a restructure. that would have minimized the effect other teams like the Jets could have had on the negotiations. Instead they (Jonathan I think) announced that it was a placeholder only and Revis knew he would become a free agent. that gave him all the leverage. If necessary, then yes the should have picked up option and dealt with the ugly cap situation for this year. Yes, the cap hit would suck, but for this year only. And no this would not prevent them from keeping Chandler and Hightower and Collins as those contracts could all be dealt with next year when the 25 mil cap charge came off the books. It would delay their ability to take care of those contracts but in no way prevent them from working them out next year. Yes, a 25 mil cap hit would be ugly.

Without some major slashing and frantic restructuring, they didn't have the cap space for 2015 to absorb the $20m. You are correct..Revis is on record as saying that it was the Patriots move first to say yes/no to the option. Hypothetically, the next step was to restructure the deal...which is unclear if Revis would be amiable to. Lastly, by picking up the option, it runs against every financial and team building philosophy this team has.

You are also making a big assumption that while under contract w/ the Pats, the Jets didn't make Revis aware of their contract offer. I'll go to my grave believing that Revis knew what kind of guaranteed money the Jets were offering before being informed by the Pats that they were not picking up his option.

You are also assuming that Revis wanted to be here and not in NY and would negotiate/behave in good faith.

They could have kept the band together so to speak for one more year and taken another run at the Super Bowl.

The will be taking another run at is this year and proving luck and health are on their side, have a very good chance at making the Super Bowl again.

 

[IllegalContact]

I think I mentioned this somewhere earlier, but since 2011 was brought up, it deserves a rewind....

while there is a huge perceptual difference between winning and losing an SB, in comparing 2011 to this year in terms of true distance traveled, how much more did this years Pats achieve over the 2011 team?

- this year the pats almost lost the SB and in 2011, they almost won it.....the net result in terms of the games as they were played makes the 2 years NOT THAT DIFFERENT

- The Pats won because of Brady and the offense and the fact that the game plan wore down the Seahawks defense so badly that protecting what the offense did moving forward was by far this teams biggest hope moving forward.

- Let's be a little more factual about the defense from this past season.....yes, it made big plays, but was it that good? in the playoffs, The Ravens offense played well enough to win and the Pats defense played poorly enough to lose......the Pats offense saved the day


The Colts were the Colts, so nothing there

The Seahawks? Again, the offense saved the day, despite the last moment heroics of the defense who happened to put themselves into the spot of having to save the day

 

[EatSleepWinRepeat]

Please name one game where a team lost the game by outscoring their opponent, but giving up more yards.

The Superbowl...

Outscored them for the first 50 minutes, gave up more yards in the last 10.