Welcome to PatsFans.com

Post-Game Notables. Vollmer, Faulk, Secondary, O'Brien, 4th Down Call

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by maverick4, Nov 16, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    7,669
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0

    1. Sea Bass Vollmer absolutely dominated Freeney, mostly without help, all game. He was also a beast in the running game. (I personally think that the Pats should have run behind Vollmer *if* they decided to go with an illogical 4th down call).

    2. Kevin Faulk was clutch all game. The missed 4th down catch was the correct call, but Faulk made huge plays all game, in the running and passing game, and even on that play made a great catch after getting hit.

    3. Nick Kaczur was, and has been for a long time, a below average tackle. He is both slow, and weak. Mathis had his way with him, but I have seen much lesser DE's abuse him as well. I can't wait for Light to get back and either play RT, or have Vollmer slide to RT.

    4. The defense, and secondary in particular, played great. The Colts scored 14 total points with 4 minutes left in the game. Some of those passes the Colts made throughout the game, were basically perfectly executed, unstoppable plays by Manning and Wayne. The pass interference on Butler was BS, but expected given the ridiculous PI calls the Pats always get when they play Polian's refs.

    5. The Pats offense was rolling most of the game. Moss and Welker could not be stopped.

    6. Having said that, O'Brien is still below average as an offensive coordinator. He was very predictable with the shotgun draws, had several notable red zone failures, as well as burned costly timeouts due to either his play calling or organization skills...which ended up influencing the outcome of the game.

    7. Here are my thoughts on the 4th down call, and why it was a poor call. No matter what payoff tree one tries to create, it makes no sense why it's justified to go for it on 4th down on your own 30, especially against Peyton Manning. The biggest fallacy is what Belichick said in the post-game, that he wanted to roll the dice and win the game now based on his confidence in the offense. If one factors in the percentage of getting that 1st down (and the downfall of giving Manning 2 minutes on your own 30), versus the chance that Manning can score a TD from his own 30, there is no rational or mathematical explanation why it was a smart call.

    I want to bring up the discussion from the Pats-Falcons game because it is completely relevant. Some "geniuses" at the time tried to argue that going for it on 4th on our own 25 was a rationally supported move, when it wasn't. I'm linking those discussions here, to add to debunking the myth that going for it on 4th down, from your own 30 or less, is somehow supported by reason as opposed to just gambling:

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/277280-fourth-1-pats-24-yard-line.html

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ficial-patriots-falcons-post-game-thread.html
  2. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    13,028
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +43 / 4 / -3

    I was most bummed out by O'Brien. Did not like the playcalling in the 4th, but worse than the playcalling was the lack of consistency.

    If you're going to take the air out of the ball by running, then concede the first down and get the play clock down to 3:20 seconds. The Colts are down 13. The decision to throw stopped the clock with more than 4 minutes left.

    Brady does not trust O'Brien, and if he did, he wouldn't call that timeout that started the last series.

    If you take more chances on that last series, maybe it doesn't come down to a 4th down at all.

    I was really critical of O'Brien's 4th qtr.
  3. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    13,220
    Likes Received:
    436
    Ratings:
    +1,242 / 2 / -3

    We played 2 different games. We dominated the first half, in which we were aggressive on both offense and defense, mixed things up, attacked, used play-action pass, and kept the Colts off balance. Neither Freeney nor Mathis generated consistent pressure in the first half. Manning was frustrated and thrown off his game.

    In the second half we once again became more passive and predictable, getting softer on defense and reverting to the shotgun as our almost exclusive offensive formation. This allowed the Colts DE's to tee off on Brady. Vollmer shut down Freeney, but Mathis generated consistent pressure and altered a lot of throws, resulting in change of possessions. We again showed an inability to put opponents away in the second half (Denver, Baltimore), an inability to make crucial scores in the red zone (the Maroney fumble and the last score where we stalled after getting to the Indy 16 and had to settle for a FG when a TD would have iced the game). And our game management and play calling in the 4th quarter were atrocious.

    I agree the PI call on Butler was bogus, and the Faulk spot was very questionable. But we opened ourselves up to the bad spot by cutting it way too close on that play with a poor call. Other than those 2 calls I thought the game was well officiated.

    Manning is too good to let him off the hook. We had him down and out, and let him off the hook. No excuses. We have only ourselves to blame for giving the game away.

    Players of the game for the Pats: Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Sebastian Vollmer and Tom Brady.

    Goats of the game: the Pats coaching staff and the run defense (though admittedly the loss of Warren hurt a lot).
  4. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2004
    Messages:
    17,290
    Likes Received:
    678
    Ratings:
    +1,857 / 16 / -22

    9 games down , 7 to go....suppose O'Brien gets things a little straightened out? Why should the Pats be afraid to go anywhere to play in the playoffs? Tough loss, but it IS a 1 point loss to a 9-0 team in THEIR house. You don't think the Pats KNOW they can beat the Colts in Indy?
  5. BionicPatriot

    BionicPatriot Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,542
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    Say what you will about the defense. They were unable to make the stops they needed to against Denver, and the same thing tonight. Hell, the same thing all of last year in all 5 losses.

    This game was the measuring stick and the Patriots failed. I'm not worried about them getting to the playoffs, it's what they'll do when they get there I worry about. When are they going to start beating good teams again? It's always the little things that lose games like this.
  6. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    20,897
    Likes Received:
    129
    Ratings:
    +339 / 22 / -2

    The run defense???????????????????????????
    Review the stats and understand that we were usually in the dime and were playing without Warren and Green.


  7. BionicPatriot

    BionicPatriot Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,542
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    They were close last year with Matt Cassel, had them down 21-0 in 06. Just because we play them tough means ****. The colts absolutely own the Patriots right now so much its embarassing.
  8. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Messages:
    9,930
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    That's one small bright spot from the game. Vollmer ate Freeney for lunch.

    I don't have DVR but I think he only blew 1 or 2 blocks on Freeney because of that patented spin move.
  9. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    7,669
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0

    We could argue percentages all we want, but forcing Manning to score a TD from his own 30 as opposed to our own 30, is a much superior choice to the percentage of converting that 4th down.

    One could make the same rational justification for PUNTING, against a much lesser QB. Going against Peyton makes even less sense to give him a short field when leading by less than a TD.

    If Belichick wanted the ball last he could have let the Colts score much earlier and given Brady more time. If Belichick really wanted to go for it no matter what, he should have ran the ball on 3rd and 4th down. Instead, he simply screwed up and didn't follow any coherent strategy.
  10. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2006
    Messages:
    4,370
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    He did a great job. However, because the Pats kept passing the ball, it allowed Freeney to finally make plays when it mattered most. He is developing nicely.

    The game shouldn't have come down to that 4 and 2. I don't blame Faulk for not getting 2 yards. The Pats should've blown them out.

    Kaczur has had a decent year. However, he really struggles against elite DE's. I like the idea of Light and Vollmer playing at the same time.

    Bodden played great. However, he should've been on Wayne. I don't like Wilhite at all. He's not starting material.

    Bill O'Brien is what he is, a rookie play caller. The turnover of staff has really killed the Pats in clutch situations. Passing the football on 1st and goal has got to stop! Also, we will always sit here and think Maroney is a bust when he gets the ball only 13 times.

    In the end, I'm afraid the Colts are starting to creep fear into the Pats heads' that they just can't beat them.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
  11. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    13,220
    Likes Received:
    436
    Ratings:
    +1,242 / 2 / -3

    I understand that. The loss of Warren and Green undoubtedly hurt. And we played the run well for 3 quarters.

    But the fact is that in the 4th quarter our run defense fell apart and we got shredded. For the game we outgained Indy 113 yards (on 28 carries, for a 4 yard average) to 91 (on 18 carries for a 5 yard average). But in the 4th quarter we gained a total of 5 yards rushing on 6 plays (0.83 yard average with the long run being a whopping 2 yards) vs. 38 yards rushing by Indy on 5 attempts (average 7.6 YPC). The Colts got 38 of their 91 yards rushing (42%) in the 4th quarter.
  12. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    7,669
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0

    I still think Belichick is one of the 5 best NFL coaches of all time, but this one is on him. The defense gave up 14 points through the mid-4th quarter.

    Ultimately, he did not have a coherent strategy.

    If he trusted his D, he would have punted. I can understand going for it on 4th if he thought his D was garbage (which it wasn't).

    If he knew he would go for sure on 4th, why not run 2 straight times, instead of use shot gun on 4th down.

    After he failed the conversion, why go all out and stop Addai at the goal line, after already saying you didn't trust your D and wanted your offense to win it.

    If you wanted your offense to win it, you could have let Manning score earlier and given your offense way more time to get a field goal.
  13. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Messages:
    9,930
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    In the final analysis, yes the game appears to be on BB.

    He could have gone for it on that 4th, but he burned his last timeout recalling the punt team.

    At that point, was he aware that he had therefore lost any right to challenge any forthcoming play that occured outside the 2 minute warning?

    Also why stop Addai?

    Why not allow Manning to score quickly?

    Personally, I think it's better to take a page from BB's book and just move on, instead of dwelling on the loss.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
  14. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    13,028
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +43 / 4 / -3

    You must call a TO right before the play that wins or loses the game. You must do that there.

    The chances of needing the challenge flag on that one play are about 1% (i.e. there were 150 plays this game, and two challengeable plays).

    The problem was the second TO. Brady clearly didn't trust O'Brien's playcall, and then O'Brien came back with a run???!!
  15. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    7,669
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0

    O'Brien was horrible, but so was Pees. I don't think it's a coincidence that Pees has now been a part of two memorable defensive melt downs against the Colts.


    Forget all the arguing over Belichick's 4th down call. After he lost that bad move, why not just let the Colts score and not touch them at all? The Pats lost the game when they stopped Addai at the goal line, instead of giving the Pats 90 seconds to score a potential FG.
  16. doesntmatter1

    doesntmatter1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,027
    Likes Received:
    31
    Ratings:
    +56 / 0 / -0

    We were distributing the ball nicely in the beginning then out of no where they decide to stop throwing to the tight ends, edelman, and aiken. WTF. Then maroney decides to have his worst game of the year with less than 3 yards per carry and a fumble. We can definitely find someone better than maroney next season via draft, free agency, etc.

    For god sake, help kaczur or put levoir in. Wilfork should of been replaced in the 4th quarter by anyone. He had absolutely no power left whatsoever. For the most part, I thought our secondary played very solid.

    One last thing. Besides Moss there doesn't seem to be a reciever on the roster capable of catching the deep, over the shoulder, bomb(i had hopes for Tate but whatever) and that limits what the pats can do offensively.
  17. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Messages:
    9,930
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    O'Brien didn't come back with a run. It was a hi-low drag.

    BTW for all the ballyhoo over Faulk and the "bobble" call. Welker was open, FWIW.
  18. TheBostonStraggler

    TheBostonStraggler Rookie

    Joined:
    May 21, 2006
    Messages:
    2,014
    Likes Received:
    13
    Ratings:
    +41 / 0 / -0

    I cannot agree more. I was SCREAMING at the tv to let Addai score. We were able to move the ball almost anytime we opened up the offense. Why not take the ball down 1 point with about 50 seconds to go???? Amazingly stupid considering BB didn't trust his D to stop them from 70 yards away. There's nobody I'd want more than BB but this just shows he is a man not a machine. He can make mistakes. Also, Brady and/or Faulk not going a couple yards beyond the stick is unF'Nbelievable.

    That said, EVERYONE has tough losses. The game is over. We lost. Indy made a few more plays and therefore rightfully won. Everyone already knew Indy was a good team and were capable of winning. Now it's time to beat the Jets on Sunday. If we meat (sic) Indy again we will have to play a bit better to actually win. End of story......best to move on from this evenings fiasco.
  19. TheComeback

    TheComeback Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,526
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    To be honest, I haven't seen this team make a clutch defensive stop since the Colts game of 2007. They seem to fall apart in the 4th quarter.

    If it's a question of endurance, they should have figured it out by now.

    I don't get it. I'm starting to lose faith in Pees. The D played great football for three quarters, but the endgame execution has been awful. Even in the Ravens game, we won because of a drop. Unacceptable.
  20. WhoaDirty

    WhoaDirty Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,235
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0

    Who would you replace him with? For that matter, how would you replace him when Indy is running no huddle? Last minute DE scratch and then two OLBs going down I think really hurt our defense. I never saw TBC or Ninkovich after their injuries - did either of them make it back onto the field?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>