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Post-Combine - The Patsfans Risers/Fallers Donnybrook Discussion

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by Box_O_Rocks, Feb 26, 2009.

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  1. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    patchick and mayclinic experessed some surprise over absences on the Sports Illustrated Risers/Fallers list Tony Pauline put out. This is our opportunity to post our own list(s) of players who helped themsleves with their performances at the Combine. Please take a moment to tell us if you personally consider them a mover, e.g. you rated them as a fourth round player and now consider them a third or sixth round player (why would be nice too), or if you think the prospect impressed the NFL/draftnik community as a whole, e.g.:
    -- Kansas' Ian Campbell moved up from 7/UDFA into the round 5/6 range after displaying more athleticism than some might have thought.

    Marquis of Queensberry rules at all time if you please.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2009
  2. Clonamery

    Clonamery PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    "No patty-fingers, if you please. The proprieties at all times. Hold on to your hats."

    Anyways....Josh Freeman is not a 1st Day QB. He's a physical specimen but he's light years away. I don't care how tall, fast or strong he is. He had a dismal year and was inaccurate as all heck. That said, I figure the jets will take him at #17.
  3. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    TEs Dan Gronkowski and Anthony Hill proved that while they were primarily blocking TEs in college, they have very good athleticism and skills in the passing game. 6th round grades from me.

    RB Andre Brown shows better athleticism than many RBs 40 lbs lighter. Solid 5th round prospect.

    Agree on Campbell.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2009
  4. bakes781

    bakes781 Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Risers:

    Connor Barwin (late 2nd to high 2nd)
    Chip Vaughn (late 3rd to high 3rd)
    Darrius Heyward-Bey (high 2nd to late 1st)
    Clay Matthews (high 2nd to late 1st)
    Pat White(mid 4th to high 3rd)

    Fallers:

    Malcolm Jenkins (high 1st to mid 1st)
    Andre Smith (high 1st to mid 1st)
  5. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Looks like a solid list. I think Andre Smith may be in even bigger trouble than a mid-first ranking unless he can persuade teams that his attitude toward the combine was an aberration. In fact, I'd say William Beatty might have moved ahead of him as an LT candidate.

    OT Lydon Murtha recorded such an incredible workout that a lot of teams must be taking a second look at his film right now. He had a reputation for being smart and strong but not especially quick and athletic...but he also had a string of injuries slowing him down. Here's a comparison: you know how a lot of people were saying that Jasper Brinkley showed up well and made himself some money? Well Murtha put up practically sthe same numbers as Brinkley -- at 6'7" 306 lbs.
  6. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Risers:

    - Pat White, QB.

    - Andre Brown, RB: Good size/speed.

    - Donald Brown, RB: Looked very good.

    - Ian Johnson, RB: More athletic than anticipated.

    - Darius Heyward-Bey, WR. Obvious.

    - Brian Robiskie, WR. Looked fluid and smooth. 2nd-3rd round.

    - Deon Butler, WR.

    - Johnny Knox, WR.

    - Jason Smith, OT: Obvious.

    - William Beatty OT: Obvious.

    - Aaron Curry, LB. Obvious. On another level from the other LBs.

    - Clay Matthews, LB. Looked better than his teammates in almost every facet. Good agility and good times in the shuttle and 3-cone.

    - Connor Barwin, DE/OLB. Obvious. One of the best overall performances of the combine.

    - Michael Johnson, DE/OLB. 6'7" 266# with 4.75 speed and good agility in the drills. Was better in space than I anticipated.

    - Darius Butler, CB. Good speed, great vertical/long jump, good feet, looked smooth in drills. Will challenge Alphonso Smith and DJ Moore.

    - Vontae Davis, CB: Benefitted mainly from Malcolm Jenkins' poor performance, may be the #1 CB on some boards.

    - Joe Burnett, CB: Being branded "best value" by Mayock can't hurt.

    - Donald Washington, CB: A 45" vertical will get some people's attention and move him up.

    - Louis Delmas, S. Weighed in a bit heftier than thought at 202#, Really looked the part. Interviewed well.

    - Patrick Chung, S.

    - David Bruton, S. Good size/speed/agility numbers.

    - Stephen Hodge, S. Impressive size/speed.

    - Chip Vaughn, S. Moved into round 3 territory.

    Fallers:

    - Andre Smith, WR. Obvious.

    - Michael Crabtree, WR. May not have fallen far, but being shorter than imagined and having a stress fracture can only hurt his stock.

    - Derrick Williams, WR.

    - Jaison Williams, WR.

    - Josh Freeman, QB: nice physical specimen, but no accuracy. I hope someone like the Jets jumps on him, but he didn't look good at all.

    - Shawn Green, RB: Big lumbering truck. A load, but little speed/agility.

    - LeSean McCoy RB: Missed a big opportunity to look good given how poorly all the other RBs looked.

    - Everett Brown, DE/OLB: measured in at 6' 1 1/2", awfully short for a DE or even a 3-4 OLB. His 4.73 was not exceptional. Hard to see one of the top 11 jumping at a 6' 1/12" DE/LB with 4.73 speed. Didn't run the short shuttle or 3-cone, which leaves big questions about his agility as an OLB.

    - Rey Maualuga, ILB: Slow and lacking power. Injury may have had something to do with it, but he comes across as nonchalant and unfocused.

    - James Laurinaitis, ILB: Slow and unimpressive. Didn't stand out at all.

    - DJ Moore, CB: Ran a 4.54 40, measured in at shorter than expected (5' 8 7/8") and didn't look particular smooth; almost fell while flipping from his backpedal. Looked like he was forcing it.

    - Coye Francies, CB: No more 1st round hype.

    - Dominique Johnson: Unimpressive all-around.

    - Kevin Ellison, S. 4.85, and poor agility. Looks like a LB.

    - Nic Harris, S. See Kevin Ellison.

    - Emmanuel Cook, S. Unimpressive in every facet.

    Question Marks:

    - Jeremy Maclin, WR. Didn't show tremendous speed, but no one seems to think he fell.

    - Percy Harvin, WR. Not sure how he came out of all this.

    - Brandon Pettigrew, TE. Slow, but not sure it will hurt him much.

    - Aaron Maybin, DE/OLB: His 4.78 was slower than anticipated, but we weighed in at 249# and looked good in agility drills, showing nice ability to play in space and go to the ball.

    - Brian Cushing, LB: Not the workout warrior some predicted, didn't look as good as Matthews, but better than Laurinaitis or Maualuga.

    - William Moore, S: Weight down to 221#, his 4.53 wasn't bad and he looked better in drills than in the Senior Bowl. But he didn't look like a 1st round pick, nor as smooth as Delmas or Patrick Chung.

    - Malcolm Jenkins, CB. Obvious.

    - Alphonso Smith, CB: His 5'9" height was better than DJ Moore, but his 4.50 wasn't great, and the drills didn't really show off his ball skills. Interviewed well.

    - Sean Smith, CB/S: His height, weight and 40 time were impressive. Looked reasonable in drills. But didn't run a short shuttle or 3-cone, leaving me to question his agility a bit.

    Gotta run ... more later.
  7. bakes781

    bakes781 Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Now that's ^ an impressive list! lol

    but one question...

    :eek: that's a big boy, but can he run a fade route? :p
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2009
  8. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Great list, mayoclinic.
  9. Mark Morse

    Mark Morse PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #15 Jersey

    Fallers

    Brian Manderville TE Norteastern - Local kid from Walpole had his dream shattered before he got started. The reccommendation from the doctors after the physical was that he should retire and never play again. I had him as one of my late round selections for the Patriots. Would love to see the Patriots reach out to him and sign him to work in the scouting department!

    Kevin Akins CB Boston College - Ran a pedestrian 4.7 !!! I knew he wasn't a burner and thought with his size he could move to LB. I had him as a late round round sleeper, but he will be lucky to get drafted now.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2009
  10. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I guess it wasn't so obvious. My understanding is that he's strictly a slot receiver. :D
  11. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    I think almost all the CB's, not named V. Davis, are fallers. This has to be the slowest group of CB's ever. I remain shocked over how slow they ran (as a group I mean.)

    Last year I took Lowery off my board after he ran a 4.6 even though he had the best ball skills I had seen in college in quite some time, and he went on to start for the Jets for a good part of the 2008 season, so maybe there is some measure of hope for slow CB's with superior ball skills.
  12. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Agree with the Akins and Mandeville sliders. Here's a few more to add to my earlier "short" list:

    Risers

    - Mike Wallace, WR: Another speed demon WR with a 4.33 40, 40" vertical and 10'9" long jump. Very deep WR class.

    - Jarrett Dillard, WR: Posted a 42.5" vertical and a 10'9" verticle as well as a respectable 4.53, to go with his outstanding Shrine Game performance. Looks like a 3rd round pick now.

    - Jared Cook, TE: One of the athletic freaks of the combine. 4.50 40, 41" vertical. May have passed Brandon Pettigrew as the #1 TE on some boards.

    - Jamon Meredith, OT/G: Had a solid combine, and may have moved into 2nd round territory. Very versatile.

    - Lydon Murtha, OT: One of the workout warriors of the combine, putting up a 4.89 40, a 7.06 3-cone, and a 35" vertical. Moved up several rounds.

    - Alex Boone, OT: Had a solid combine, and may have stopped his free-fall.

    - Eric Wood, OG/C: Interviewed well, and had a solid performance. Solidified himself as a solid 2nd round pick.

    - AQ Shipley, OG/C: Solid performance during a week in which no OG/C separated himself from the pack.

    - Brian Orapko, DE: At 263#, ran the 40 in 4.70 (faster than Everett Brown, and just behind Connor Barwin) and put up a 39.5 vertical. Looks like a solid top-10 pick.

    - Lawrence Sidbury, DE: Had the fastest 40 of all DEs.

    - Terrance Taylor, DT: Showed more athleticism than expected and put up 37 reps on the bench press.

    - Myron Prior, DT: Ran a 5.05 40 at 319#, and showed good athleticism.

    - Sammie Lee Hill, DT: Ran a 5.11 40 at 329# and showed good athleticism. With the lack of potential NTs and the teams moving to the 3-4, he may be a 3rd-4th round pick.

    - Ziggy Hood, DT/DE: Ran a 4.89 40 at 300#, put up 34 reps on the bench press, and looked good in drills. Top 50 guy.

    Fallers

    - Brandon Ore, RB: Worked himself into UDFA territory.

    - Maurice Evans, DE: The Maurice Clarrett award winner in my book. Showed up totally out of shape, ran a 4.97 and 5.03 40. May go undrafted. Was once considered a first round prospect.

    - Paul Kruger, DE. Failed to show the speed or explosiveness expected, and lost ground to other DE prospects. Didn't show the agility needed to play 3-4 OLB. A late 2nd/early 3rd guy.

    - Tim Jamison, DE: Ran a 5.03 40.

    - Matt Shaughnessy, DE: Ran a 4.88 40. No more talk of conversion to 3-4 OLB. 3rd-4th round prospect.

    - Ron Brace, DT: Ran a 5.5 40 and didn't show much explosiveness. Probably won't fall much though because of the lack of potential NTs.

    - Vance Walker, DT: Ran a 5.35 40 at 305#. Out of shape.

    Question Marks

    - Matt Stafford, QB: Interviewed well, but didn't work out. Will have to wait till his pro day.

    - Mark Sanchez, QB: Not particularly impressive throwing, but didn't do anything awful. Reportedly with a good interview.

    - Chris Wells, RB: Slower than expected 40, but all RBs ran slow.

    - Knowshon Moreno, RB: See Chris Wells. Wells and Moreno won't be drafted based on their combine results, but probably didn't slide a lot.

    - Eugene Monroe, OT: 23 reps somewhat disappointed. Overshadowed by Jason Smith. But still one of the top 2 OTs.

    - Michael Oher, OT: Didn't display particular athleticism, 21 reps disappointing. But probably holding steady, particularly in comparison to Andre Smith's meltdown.

    - Eben Britton, OT: Overshadowed by William Beatty, but did ok as far as I can tell.

    - Alex Mack, OG/C: Didn't work out as far as I can tell, and lost a chance to separate himself from the pack.

    - Jarron Gilbert, DE: I have seen him listed as both a riser and a faller on different reviews. Ran a 4.87, quite good for 288#. He obviously has tremendous physical ability, but he apparently didn't show the incredible explosiveness that some thought he would after watching his youtube pool video. Speaking of clogging the passing lanes, I see he has 37" arms to go with his 6'5" frame. Impressive. I hope he lasts to 58.

    - Robert Ayers, DE: Didn't hear much about him, after his Senior Bowl hype. He ran a 4.80 40, which seems a bit on the slow side. Probably slipped a little.

    - Larry English, DE/LB: Apparently was mis-listed as 272# instead of 254#, but ran a 4.80 40. Will likely have slipped a bit, but not a fast faller like some.

    - BJ Raji, DT: Raji seemed a bit heavy at 337#, but still put up a 5.13 40 and showed pretty good agility for a big man. I don't think he's "rising" any more than he did at the Senior Bowl, but I don't think his stock slipped much, if at all.


    All right, I think I'm out of gas.
  13. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    I wonder if Team Belichick didn't foresee this last year, leading to our drafting two in the first four rounds.
  14. Box_O_Rocks

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    Draft Daddy: Mock Draft
    :woohoo:
  15. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    NFL Combine (REAL) Winners and Losers: Defense | In The Bleachers College Football Blog
  16. Box_O_Rocks

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    NFL Combine (REAL) Winners and Losers: Offense | In The Bleachers College Football Blog
  17. bucky

    bucky Rookie

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    Just goes to show you that 40 times are overrated unless they're really really fast (like Deion Sanders), or really really slow.

    On that note, I'm shocked with the rise of Heyward-Bay. Yeah, so he ran a 4.3. How many times does a team have to draft Troy Williamson, Bethel Johnson, Brad Jones, or Tyrone Calico before they figure out that fast 40 does not equal good WR.
  18. My2Cents

    My2Cents Rookie

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    Great thread. Thank you.

    My top uppers, off the top of my head, have to include:

    1. QB Pat White, WVU
    Certainly one of the draft's most exciting players. Written off as too small to play QB, but all he does is prove doubters wrong and impress at every turn.
    White shoots from a mid-to-late round project to a legitimate 2nd round
    QB prospect, with the Lions, Rams, Jets, Vikings, 49ers, all possibilities.
    Hell, he's getting serious play as a 1st round possibility to the Broncos!

    2a. WR Kenny McKinley, SC
    With all due respects to Kevin Ogletree (Virginia), if there is a Eddie Royal in this class, this is probably it! McKinley played in the shadows of Sydney Rice and battled injuries throughout his career. Then he exploded to break all kinds of records. Very much under the radar, even still. I'm moving him from the mid-round grade that others gave him to a very realistic 2nd round.

    2b. CB Joe Burnett, UCF
    My favorite player in this draft. He got snubbed by the Senior Bowl for having only mid-round speed. Then he shows up at the Combine and more than holds his own with the best DB's in the nation. Better than Asante Samuel.
    Mike Mayock now calls him a day 2 steal. But I still call him a day 1 steal.

    3. FS David Bruton, Notre Dame
    Was given a mid round grade by most. But then he blew up the Combine by finishing in the top five in almost every statistical category. Bruton is clearly this year's "Tyrell" Johnson (Ark St). He's also a leader and a fan favorite.

    4. DE/LB David Veikune, Hawaii
    Another player that graded out as a day 2 player, until people got a better look. He's a beast, with a non-stop motor. You would be hard pressed to find anybody that doesn't like him, or who fails to see him as a 2nd round pick.

    5. Center A.Q. Shipley, PSU
    I spent a lot of time watching linemen drills. Murtha is fast but sucked in other drills. Vasquez is strong but lacks athleticism. Meredith is a mover but how high is uncertain. The one guy that most impressed was Shipley. I think he moved from a day 2 afterthought to a potential Pro Bowl day 2 selection.

    Top downers, off of the top of my head, include:

    1. A 4-way tie: OSU's CB Malcolm Jenkins, MLB James Laurinaitis, RB Chris “Beanie” Wells and OT Alex Boone.
    All 3 were in prime position to be the 5th pick overall. All 3 failed miserably to deliver. Bill Belichick hit the nail on the head early on about how teams will be unable to determine if Jenkins is a Safety or a CB. Laurinaitis skips the Senior Bowl, then fails to impress at the Combine. Wells couldn't live up to all the crazy hype about his superior speed. He rebounded slightlly at his team's Pro Day, but not enough. Their best days may be behind them, I'm afraid to say.
    As for Boone, he doesn't pass the stupid test. He'll now likely go undrafted.

    2. RB Shonn Greene, Iowa
    I hated to see this because I so love his physicality and vision. But the reality is that he did nothing to dispell the rumors about his laziness and lack of work ethic, even knowing it was in question. I still see a Corey Dillon type career for him, and there are few nicer persons in this draft. But now, a 3rd.

    3. Too many to mention.
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2009
  19. My2Cents

    My2Cents Rookie

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    #54 Jersey

    Great point! That's what I keep saying! But up against the media machine(s) and their followers, who will listen?
  20. My2Cents

    My2Cents Rookie

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    #54 Jersey

    Great point! That's what I keep saying! But up against the media machine(s) and their followers, who will listen?
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