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Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by khayos, Dec 7, 2010.

  1. khayos

    khayos In the Starting Line-Up

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    You know who you are -- your name is in blue rather than red.

    Many of us spend hours and hours on here reading and debating. For all that time & entertainment, shouldn't you be a VIP member? If I recall correctly, it's only $18/year and you get a free t-shirt and other goodies. The posters in here tend to be more high traffic than others -- and more verbose. Don't you want to ensure the servers your rants are stored on don't crash?
     
  2. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    I wrote to Ian asking him to remove the "automatic renewal" feature and then I'll "join".

    I don't think any company or individual should be able to legally make part of joining something for a fee, "Renew automatically"

    If he removes that, I'll join. If not, I'll stand firm where I am.

    BTW...one can not "freeload" on a free website.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey


    That's not the way it is ... you can join with automatic or without.
     
  4. Kid~Brady

    Kid~Brady In the Starting Line-Up

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    #12 Jersey

    Lol :p

    funny
     
  5. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    If that's the case, I'll prolly join. But when he first started this drive, I went to join but saw the auto-renewal and changed my mind. I never join anything that has that feature.

    I don't know why anyone would join anything that has an auto-renewal feature.
     
  6. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    PR, you've seemed skeptical in the past when I've told you I'm probably to the right of you on a variety of issues.

    One area where that's becoming clear has to do with your views on corporate behavior versus mine, and where the govt fits in. It came up recently in some context. This is another case of it -- companies should be perfectly free to have that feature in place, as customers / consumers are perfectly free to reject it, as you apparently have here.

    As long as the company makes it clear what the policy is (not always the case), and doesn't make it hard for you to opt out (not always the case), they should be free to do as they please in the marketplace. (I'd agree with you, though, that the govt has a role in making regs that require both those things.)
     
  7. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv In the Starting Line-Up

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    I understand the want to monetize the traffic, I do. But let's also know that the freeloaders is what makes selling advertisers possible. It's really a symbiotic relationship.

    We provide you with tons and tons of traffic a day, with amazing stats such as low bounce rates, strong avg time on page, etc... in turn you can sell that to advertisers.

    Honestly ( and this is what I do for a living ) Your entire platform for this message board is just the default PHPBB, and it's not skinned properly for you to make advertising more attractive. Just slapping in banner between posts never works, and doesn't cut.

    Honestly, you should look into 99DEsigns.com and run a Design contest to have someone completely re-design the site, and make it even more attractive as a news source for Pats, and community for new people. I love it becuase Ive been here before and I couldn't stand KFFL anymore.

    But I can see new users ( Pats fanbase grows every year ) wanting more flavor and spice to their site. Think Patriots.com. Of course that's the extreme, but you can add a lot more visual appeal, and define better marketable regions on your template and focus on selling real ads, not just google ad, which is a complete joke and google makes most of that money and gives you a small slight bit of it.

    Also, I would pay 18.00 a year if my Signature was viewable to anonymous users. As it is right now, I have my company in my sig, but when Google comes to index your site, it's an anonymous user, and therefore the sigs don't show and I don't get the link back to my company.

    If I did get that, that would be worth 18.00 a year with out blinking.
     
  8. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    I said I would join if I could get a guarantee that I wouldn't be banned from participating, but I won't pay $18 when tomorrow could very easily be my last day posting here if I piss off the wrong moderator.
     
  9. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No Jersey Selected

    Why would most of the people that inhabit this forum be interested in the T-Shirt? I highly doubt that a lot of you even know that a football team called the "New England Patriots" exists. :eek:
     
  10. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Many things that businesses do are shady and deceptive. Automatic renewal features are shady & deceptive to me. If a person joins several business vehicles with such a feature, that means they have to remember 2 things every year for each case.

    1. They have to remember to decide whether or not they want to continue to be a member.
    2. Remember to deduct the charge from their accounts

    Don't know about you, but I have too many things to keep track of in my life. I would strongly support gov't regulation that makes such a feature illegal. Just my opinion.

    I've stated over and over again during my membership here that I am left of middle when it comes to regulating corporations and businesses. To me, it's always all about the consumer and never about the corporation.
     
  11. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    I think they can be shady and deceptive -- that's why I do think there's a regulatory role to ensure that the feature is made clear to potential customers and that it is easy for them to opt out once they've joined.

    But beyond that, adults should be able to make up their own minds. While what you say is true about remembering, a customer only needs to do that if they choose to join. (And once they do join, if it's really a concern, it's pretty easy to schedule things in electronic calendars.)
     
  12. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    It's not only not easy, if a person joins more than one, it's a pain in the arse. To me, the onus must be put upon the company to get a member to re-join each year.

    You and I both know that the slime-bag who thought up "automatic renewal" features told each business, "Hey, I guarantee your membership retention increase due to this feature". And the only reason is because a certain percent of customers will forget. And if one does forget, you could be stuck with months payments for nothing. That is the essence of sleeze.

    If I owned a business, I would never allow such a feature to be part of it.

    I would support any gov't regulation that prevents ANY form of deception by corp's to consumers. Other than buying a house, no purchase should have anything remotely complicated. After all, a purchase is a very simple act.

    Why do think contracts are slowly dying (i.e. Verizon Cable)? All you need is one honest company offering a product with no contracts and the rest will follow. In my opinion, consumers should decide the terms of a purchase, not the seller.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  13. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    It actually is easy, if you just make a point of it at the time -- make an entry for a week or 2 before the renewal / cancellation is due, make a reminder, and you're done.

    But if that's something you're not good about doing, what I have to come back to is that it's your choice -- and it should be an easy choice for an adult to make.

    If the terms are clear, I don't see what business the government has standing in the way of two parties. (This is why I also oppose things like anti-smoking laws for bars.)


    I completely agree that is a huge part of the appeal for companies.

    But if it's clear, I disagree that it's sleazy. The essence of sleaze involves things like deception and force - for a salient example, the 2 things that I've acknowledged as potential abuses w/r/t automatic renewals. If a company is unclear that the feature exists, or makes it hard for you to get out (AOL), that is sleazy, and I agree it should be illegal - because you no longer have real consent from the customer.


    And if you owned a business, you would be able to make that call.

    As for contracts or making business simple, if what you say is true, that's a competitive advantage a company could exploit. Why should government take that away?

    Going back to the smoking bans, here in LA there were a couple bars that prohibited smoking long before the government got into the act. And it was a selling point for some customers -- they didn't have to breathe smoke, they didn't smell like smoke when they left. If you were OK with smoke, or wanted to smoke, you had to go elsewhere. And that's exactly how it should be, imo -- the bar owner makes his choices, the patrons make their choices.

    When smoking bans went into effect here, one of those bars continued to thrive -- because they had other things going for them (good food, great beers). The other died, largely because they no longer had that distinguishing feature -- so a guy who saw that opportunity got killed when the government decided to step in.


    Like it or not, it is -- and has to be -- a 2-way street. There's simply no other choice.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  14. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    "If" consumers act together, they will always get their way. The problem is getting consumers NOT to accept what is unacceptable. I think I'm making it perfectly clear my feelings about corporations and greed. I know our entire system is based upon greed, but I feel it's gone too far.

    In my opinion, no one has the right to smoke where others have to breath it in or even smell that God awful stink. Smokers are addicts, plain & simple. There really is no such thing as "enjoying a good smoke" when it comes to tobacco. Unlike alcohol, every person who smokes becomes addicted...there is no comparison. However, I support anyone's right to smoke in a private setting.

    The major problem with smoking in bars is that employees are forced to inhale tobacco smoke continuously for hours on end. Like most AMericans, I'm estactic smoking is banned in any public setting...and it should be.

    If a company is selling a product, then sell the product. Don't add stipulations that have nothing to do with the purchase of said product. Why should anyone have to "Schedule" reviewing whether or not to re-join anything and then pay a price if they forget? We both know we're not going to get a reminder from the vendor and that's deceptive.

    The bottom line is that anytime an individual joins something that renews automatically, they are in reality "joining for life" with the option to opt out. Like most Americans, I already have too many things to keep track of. We don't need our lives to be fully scheduled each & everyday. That would be very sad.

    When I purchase a "one year membership", I expect to join for one year. Not indefinately. So any company that has a one year membership that automatically renews isn't actually selling one-year memberships...and no 2 ways about it, that is deception!

    I'd be willing to bet auto-renewals will be outlawed or regulated in the near future, but that's just my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  15. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    How are you defining "private"? A bar is privately owned, though open to the public.

    How about a cigar bar, where the express purpose is to enjoy cigars?


    Neither statement is true. I've smoked cigarettes but am nowhere near addicted, and I enjoyed them when I smoked them (always drunk).

    I also occasionally smoke cigars and enjoy that immensely, but by no definition could be considered an addict.


    No employees are forced to inhale anything, as no employees are forced to work there.


    You're again talking about opinion, but nothing that should be law (when you talk about "stipulations").

    It isn't deception if you're aware of it. otoh, if they say they'll send a reminder and don't, that is deception. (btw, if regulations stated that a reminder needs to be sent before the renewal occurs, I could live with that, though I think it's a mild overreach by the government)


    Then don't buy it.


    Again, there's no deception if you're aware of it. You may be annoyed by it, but you're not being deceived.


    wouldn't surprise me, but I think there are far too many laws and regs as it is, and fully expect that to continue

    -----------

    What surprises me about your views in these areas, PR, is that you seem to be abdicating any sense of personal responsibility on the part of the consumer.

    Why can't adults with full information capably make a relatively simple decision?

    I'm sure that in other areas, you'd rail against the government actions you favor here as nanny statism.
     
  16. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Anyone who smokes tobacco and inhales for a short period of time will become addicted. Smoking occasionall when drunk isn't regularly. Tobacco is THE most addictive drug in America...look it up. It's more addictive than heroin.

    Personal responsibility? Are you kidding? I guarantee you 100% of consumers would prefer NOT to have to deal with auto-renewal features. We are discussing a responsibility that consumers should not have and don't want.

    May I also add that I asked Ian to remove the auto-renewal feature and suggested that he'd get more people joining if he did....I guess he chose not to remove it. I wonder why...

    The bottom-line is that unless it's removed, I won't join. I'll also add that I would like to join. But I think I'd be foolish to join something I have to schedule to cancel.

    A transaction should be simple...but adding something that the buyer needs to actually SCHEDULE one year in advance in order to opt out is not even close to "simple"

    Answer me this...Why do companies even have auto-renewal features?
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  17. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    OK, this statement is different from what you said before. No problems with this -- however, it's still an adult's choice whether to use smoke it, imo. The government has a role in making sure its dangers are known, but that's it.


    And if they prefer not to have it, they can make the choice not to.

    If, otoh, they accept that feature, they've taken on the responsibility to terminate it should they so choose.

    That is the essence of personal responsibility.


    Exactly! you're exercising personal responsibility, and choice, as is he. That's exactly how it should be. Why do we need the government to step in and tell Ian that he must remove the feature?


    That's a valid opinion, but not really a good basis for law.
     
  18. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Well, I want to tell you I've really enjoyed this discussion. We don't agree and that's awesome! You made several valid points...I didn't want you to think I didn't see them as valid.

    So now you know I'm more left than you on business issues (or at least some of them). I know I've called you out before, but I want you to know I value your comments and see you as truly non-partisan.

    Good thing we're not in business together!
     
  19. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    Right back at you. Nice being able to disagree without resorting to the namecalling that so often occurs in here.

    btw, just to be clear, I wasn't saying it's how I would run my business -- just the opposite, really. In my business I try to make things as easy as possible for our clients as well as our vendors (within reason, obviously). And I absolutely hate it when people/businesses do things solely because they can legally do so.
     
  20. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    We're definately aligned on your last point. BIG props on that one Chico!

    I respect that you run your business ethically and geared toward your customers while at the same time defending those who choose not to do so. Either I forgot you have your own business or I wasn't aware.

    I can honestly say that I probably wouldn't be a good business partner because I'm so opinionated and stubborn.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010

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