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Please no more power running formation.

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by MrBigglesWorth, Nov 26, 2006.

  1. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    If Mcdaniels is the one coming up with the game plan he needs to cut the heck out of forcing the pwoer running game. I cringe every time I see the double tight end set with the I-formation and they try the wham block with the trap. It goes absoltutely no where and bunches the defense all together and Maroney runs for like 3 yards if that. It worked in the Cincy becuase their run d obviously bites.

    And is it me or is Matt Light getting blown by everytime? Remember the days when Graham helped him? It seemed like Kaczur did a better job last year or maybe he ust had help with a TE. Anyways I am pretty disappointed at the O-line play. It's been very shoddy and seemed like there were alot of missed blocks today granted it was the top defense.

    They need to spread the wr's out and run out of that. The power formations are not working, they're drive killers.
  2. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    I agree... Mcdaniels is so frustrating. The bears took chances down field and getting one on one cverage. the pats are obviously not calling good plays to get one on one coverage. at least brady threw to jackson two times.
  3. njpatsfan

    njpatsfan Rookie

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    Ah, another asinine NEM-like thread. We seem to have acquired a "mini-NEM".

    Oh, like in the first quarter, when Dillon ran for 26 yards out of that formation ? What formation do you propose we run out of ? 4 WR and a singleback ? We've passed out of that formation to Watson for a zillion yards this year. Or do you think, like nem, that we should pass on every down till we're up by 30, THEN run the ball ?

    It's definitely you. Did you see the same game I saw ? The O-Line in pass protect was AWESOME tonight, against the best front seven in football. They allowed zero sacks. ZERO (I spelled it again in caps, so even nem can read it). Run blocking could have been better, but we still put up near 100 yards on them. There is a reason they are the #1 defense in the league.


    R
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2006
  4. unoriginal

    unoriginal Rookie

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    Greatest Hits

    :rolleyes:

    Both were incomplete.

    :confused: You're a Chicago fan, right?
  5. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Disable Jersey

    One of those "wrong routes" resulted in Jackson being wide open with nothing but daylight and bad hands between him and the end zone. If he hadn't displayed hands that were as unable to grasp anything as your mind seems to be when it comes to offensive football, he had an easy touchdown.
  6. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    Re: Greatest Hits

    Low blow chief. The O-line has been alright in pass protection only because Brady is so maneuverable in the pocket. Just keep an eye on Matt Light, he's struggled many times this season mising blocks. The O-Line needs more consistency.
  7. unoriginal

    unoriginal Rookie

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    Re: Greatest Hits

    Jackson needs to fight through that kind of PI. If Charles Tillman was Ellis Hobbs Pats fans would not be pleased if that had been called.

    Regardless, I'm not sure anybody should lobby for any player to get touches on this offense. I'd much rather Brady throw to the open receiver than hoist up deep balls to a player than can't consistantly catch anything where there is something resembling coverage on the play.

    I believe the O-line did an excellent job against one of the more fearsome pass rushing defenses in football. They've got a rookie coming off the bench closing in on 10 sacks, for christsakes. How many times was Brady sacked? Most of his hurries were based on coverage. He had so much time, you could watch him on certain replays going through his progressions twice - head going side to side like a sprinkler, then whipping back around to the first read.

    Protection was so outstanding that Tom Brady tried to run the ball twice. Brady is not Mike Vick. He does not look to run. Dan Koppen gets downfield faster. When Brady runs, its because he's gone through a dozen reads, can't find anybody, and somehow not yet being sacked, takes off up the middle because the O-line has steered all the pass rushers five yards to the side and behind him.

    If this was the Jets game, I could see where your comment was coming from. However, after this performance, you can understand how I thought you might have been confused, and was talking about what the Pats did to the Bears O-line. How many times was Grossman on his back?
  8. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    Re: Greatest Hits

    on the touches. I think brady has fell in love with watson a but too much and i can see why becuase of the comfort factor. but i also think he tries to force some balls in some tight coverage at times, even double coverage. when watson is covered with 2-3 men, there has to be someone single covered.

    i'll agree the pass protection was very good, the run protection is suspect, guys aren't maintaining their blocks long enough or missing blocks.
  9. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You have to be kidding me. The Bears played 10 games before yesterday, and hadn't allowed 300 yards to anyone. We got somewhere around 350.
    We scored 2 TDs. We were in the red zone and turned the ball over 3 times, and had 5 in total.
    I cannot imagine what playcalling has to do with defensive players stripping the ball away from a ball carrier, or causing the Watson int/fumble.
    Take away those TOs, and if we have the worst play calling ever on the ensuing plays, we get 3 FGs, and score 26 points against the Bears.
    That is the result of the playcalling, worst case, hold onto the ball, and the quality of playcalling is 26 points.
    Brady completed 67% of his passes for a strong average per pass, and was never sacked.

    Let me get this straight. You call a series of plays that allows your QB to complete 2/3s of them, for a good yards per pass, you call the plays in a manner that does not allow the defense to attack him (if we threw 45 times instead of 33 the pressure would have been much greater) and he doesnt get sacked all day.
    We have the most yards, by a lot, allowed by the #1 ranked defense all year.

    The results of those plays included players having the ball ripped out of their hands.
    The OC had a bad game.

    This could be the single most inane criticism of an OC I have ever witnessed.

    McDaniel may have been the MVP of the game yesterday.
  10. njpatsfan

    njpatsfan Rookie

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    Woo hoo AJ is back !!!!


    R
  11. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    All I am saying is they should use the goal line formation they put together on the goal line and don't decide to call it after thre ssuccessful spread formations. I'd rather see the single back set or regular I-formation. I hate when they're rolling with passes or runs and then they decide to go that goal line formation with one wide out to the right and they force the run and it goes for nothing.

    I'm for running, but why bunch everyone together and put like 9 men in the box on defense and force the run?
  12. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    The goal line formation should not be used at the 40. It's like he's calling plays out of madden. I've seen that shot gun formation with two rb's in the backfield in the playbook on madden.
  13. GoWhalers

    GoWhalers Rookie

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    Ben Watson scored the game winning TD by being left uncovered on a play-action pass out of the goal line formation.

    You don't think that was set up, in no small way, by the Patriots' committment to running out of that formation earlier in the game?

    That was the Bears defense, ladies and gentlemen. The same defense that made it all the way to the NFC championship game last year supported by Kyle Orton's 22.6 QB rating. Daniels deserves a game ball, no doubt about it.
  14. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    Mike Vrabel was in on that play. If you want to run goal line at the 50 then your argument is saying Vrabel should be in there too.

    When's the last time they got good yardage out of the goal line formation at the 50? Goal line at the 50 has been a drive killer when it's 1st and 10. If it's 3 and 3, I'm all for it.
  15. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    MCDANIEL did nothing with it????? Of course, the players are just pawns. No matter who is on the field and what they do, the play call is all that matters. There is no such thing as:
    -a missed block
    -a bad pass
    -a drop
    -a penalty
    -a good play by the defense
    -etc

    NEM-thinking at its best. Every play is supposed to be a TD and the players have nothing to do with it. NEM, my vision of your opinion is that the NFL is that every offensive player is perfect, and every defensive player stinks. All you have to do is call the right play, and it works, the players have nothing to do with it. Conversely if it didn't work the players ran that play at a touchdown efficiency, everyone was perfect but the wrong play was called.

    Back to your post. Here are the first 4 drives of the 2nd half. The ones you say McDaniel did NOTHING with.

    1)
    New England Patriots at 13:12
    1-10-NE 20 (13:12) 28-C.Dillon right tackle to NE 20 for no gain (55-L.Briggs, 93-A.Ogunleye).
    2-10-NE 20 (12:37) (Shotgun) 28-C.Dillon up the middle to NE 20 for no gain (46-C.Harris).
    3-10-NE 20 (12:02) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NE 24 for 4 yards (31-N.Vasher).
    4-6-NE 24 (11:24) 15-K.Walter punts 32 yards to CHI 44, Center-66-L.Paxton, fair catch by 23-D.Hester.

    2)
    New England Patriots at 10:50
    1-10-NE 32 (10:50) 44-H.Evans up the middle to NE 32 for no gain (99-Ta.Johnson, 91-T.Harris).
    2-10-NE 32 (10:11) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 39-L.Maroney to CHI 48 for 20 yards (33-C.Tillman, 55-L.Briggs). P14
    1-10-CHI 48 (9:31) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to CHI 45 for 3 yards (54-B.Urlacher, 55-L.Briggs).
    2-7-CHI 45 (8:55) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 17-C.Jackson (33-C.Tillman).
    3-7-CHI 45 (8:49) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass deep middle to 84-B.Watson to CHI 22 for 23 yards (55-L.Briggs). FUMBLES (55-L.Briggs), recovered by NE-87-R.Caldwell at CHI 21. 87-R.Caldwell to CHI 13 for 8 yards (38-D.Manning). FUMBLES (38-D.Manning), RECOVERED by CHI-38-D.Manning at CHI 13. 38-D.Manning to CHI 13 for no gain (80-T.Brown).
    PENALTY on CHI-33-C.Tillman, Unnecessary Roughness, 6 yards, enforced at CHI 13.

    3)
    New England Patriots at 2:28
    1-10-NE 34 (2:28) 28-C.Dillon right guard to NE 38 for 4 yards (46-C.Harris, 70-A.Boone).
    2-6-NE 38 (1:53) 28-C.Dillon left tackle to NE 41 for 3 yards (46-C.Harris, 71-I.Idonije).
    3-3-NE 41 (1:20) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle intended for 80-T.Brown INTERCEPTED by 33-C.Tillman [99-Ta.Johnson] at CHI 44. 33-C.Tillman to CHI 47 for 3 yards (85-D.Gabriel).

    4)
    New England Patriots at 14:53, (1st play from scrimmage 14:46)
    1-10-NE 27 (14:46) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 84-B.Watson pushed ob at NE 32 for 5 yards (46-C.Harris).
    2-5-NE 32 (14:28) 39-L.Maroney right tackle to NE 34 for 2 yards (54-B.Urlacher, 96-A.Brown).
    3-3-NE 34 (13:48) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass deep left to 84-B.Watson to CHI 26 for 40 yards (38-D.Manning). P15
    1-10-CHI 26 (13:02) 17-C.Jackson up the middle to CHI 34 for -8 yards (93-A.Ogunleye, 99-Ta.Johnson). double reverse
    2-18-CHI 34 (12:14) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 33-K.Faulk to CHI 25 for 9 yards (92-H.Hillenmeyer, 55-L.Briggs). NE 33-Faulk career reception 262, new Patriots record for receptions by a RB (Tony Collins 261).
    3-9-CHI 25 (11:34) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady scrambles up the middle to CHI 14 for 11 yards (33-C.Tillman). R16
    1-10-CHI 14 (10:53) 44-H.Evans up the middle to CHI 8 for 6 yards (92-H.Hillenmeyer, 91-T.Harris).
    2-4-CHI 8 (10:14) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to CHI 6 for 2 yards (55-L.Briggs, 93-A.Ogunleye).
    3-2-CHI 6 (9:39) 12-T.Brady scrambles up the middle to CHI 3 for 3 yards (55-L.Briggs, 96-A.Brown). R17
    1-3-CHI 3 (8:55) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney right tackle to CHI 2 for 1 yard (93-A.Ogunleye, 54-B.Urlacher).
    2-2-CHI 2 (8:25) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 12-T.Brady pass short left to 84-B.Watson for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN. NE 12-Brady 5th consecutive 20+ TD pass season P18
    3-S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-66-L.Paxton, Holder-15-K.Walter.


    #1 A 3 and out. Of course it must be terrible play calling since we ran the first 2 plays. Good thing we ran so much, or Brady wouldnt have had all day to throw, and not gotten sacked once, completing 67% of his passes.

    #2 We ran 5 plays and gained 54 yards. Of course, the beautiful call that had Maroney open over the middle was stupid, because McDaniel is an idiot. It must have been predictable because he has no imagination, and never changes anything yet Ive only seen it a few times all year. I'm sure when McDaniel sent it the play that gained 23 yards to Watson, he told him to fumble. Calling a 3rd and 7 play that creates a 23 yard completion must be bad play calling.
    In a defensive game, it couldnt be worthwhile at all that we changed field position from the -32 to the +6, and pinned them back, with us up 7 points, and 1 1/2 quarters to go on a day when our D had so far allowed 3 points. NO bad play calling because instead of the automatic TD that any play calling other than that of an imbecile would produce McDainel only changed field position and told Watson to fumble. (Must have REALLY thought it through to tell Caldwell to fumble too) Oh, and then the Bears drove from the -6 to the +29 before an Int. Nah, that field position gain meant nothing.

    #3 Still up 7 against a team that has scored only 3 points on us. 2:28 left in 3rd, and we start at the 34. Only an F-ing moron would run 2 running plays to set up a 3rd and 3. No one with any brains would think getting to 3rd and 3 is a good offensive philosophy (you only hear 1000 times every week how teams are extremely concerned about staying out of 3rd and long)
    What did that do? It gave Brady ALL DAY to throw. Ultimatley he threw a poor pass that Brown tipped and a defender picked. Oops, McDaniel told him to throw it poorly, told Brown to tip it up in the air, and probably signalled to Tillman that it was coming.

    #4
    A perfect example of the NOTHING that McDaniel did with these 4 drives.
    According to NEM, if you do the same thing over and over expecting different results you are stupid. But wait:
    First 3 plays...there is that 3rd and 3 set up again. That was bad play calling the first time but this time it results in a 40 yard gain. Oh, crap, same thing different result. Confusing.
    We ran on 3 of 4 first downs. We ran on 1st AND 2nd--that didnt work before. This time it did. Insanity.
    11 play 73 yard drive.
    If I didnt know McDaniel sucked and should have cost us the game, I'd think a drive with 11 plays, 4 passes, 5 runs, 2 scrambles, 73 yards and a TD was good play calling.

    Here is the kicker.
    For the 4 drives drives that NEM says McDaniel did NOTHING:
    -We scored a TD
    -We drove 51 yards to the 13 but fumbled
    -We set up a 3rd and 3 that ended in an Int
    -We gained 135 yards on 22 plays, which is 6.1 per play, which is EXCELLENT.
    -We scored a TD, and had a first down in the red zone before a fumble.
    -We threw an Int on 3rd and 3
    -We went 3 and out once.

    Take those 4 drives and repeat them over and over all year long, and sometimes eliminate the turnovers that had nothing to do with play calling, and we go undefeated.

    Thanks NEM for the insight, you really zeroed in on the perfect series of drives that prove the exact opposite of your point.
  16. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    NO NO NO.
    Your are missing the point.
    Everything BAD was set up by the previous play calls. i.e. Tom Brady has never been sacked except for the times when Weis or McDaniel called awful plays leading up to it, and invited the D to sack him.

    BUT, when a good play happens it has never been set up by the previous play calling.

    If you don't understand that you flunked NEM 101.

    Oh, FYI, NEW 102 says if there are any drives in a game that do not result in a TD, the offensive coordinator is any or all of the following: Stupid, ignorant, simple-minded, an @ss, overmatched.

    While I am at it, NEM 103 says when we win, we won despite the OC. There is nothing of value on the offensive side of the ball other than scoring a TD on this play. If we lead 35-0, anddo not score, thank God the D bailed us out by stopping them the next time, but it wont happen every week, and sooner or later we will be exposed. Sure we won 3 SBs, but if the planets were aligned differently the defense never could have bailed out Charlie Weis.
  17. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    A few items of response to the various points you raise.

    1) If I have my blockers in in a tight formation, everyone is accounted for, even with 8 or 9 in the box. And everyone in can block.
    IF I spread the field and you bring a safety up, or blitzs a LB, I have no one to pick him up.
    BOTH have their place. Spreading the field to run is more high risk, high reward, while a jumbo formation is the opposite
    2) One sure way to have problems on offense is to go to the well too often. Its being one dimensional. Throwing 3 consecutive successful times probably says a run would be better on the 4th play, because the defense is going to overplay the pass.
    Thats a frustrating thing to me that fans seem to miss. Example: If I throw on first down out of a 2TE set, and burn the weak corner in man to man, I do not get the same coverage if I keep doing it and surely wont get it on 3rd down.
    The weak link corner is easy pickings when the defense is playing 'honest' or 'base' but a TERRIBLE decision to go after when he has help. You turn a bad player into a good one because he has help (double team).
    3) Get used to it.
    There is one overwhelming message about BBs philosophy throughout this run. He is CONSERVATIVE. Always will be. Sure he will go for 4th downs, and he will blitz, but his overall approach is conservative. We play 2 gap, which is conservative. We play a lot of conservative cover2. We will run as much as we can get away with. Interestingly, the conservative mindset also manifests itself in throwing a lot at times and against certain teams. Why? If you struggle to run, you put yourself in rsiky passing downs. If you abandon it and throw, you can throw CONSERVATIVELY.
  18. njpatsfan

    njpatsfan Rookie

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    GOAL LINE formation ?

    Oh, you must mean the 2 TE formation ?! The one we have been killing people with this year on 1st and 2nd down ? The one that puts our two talented TEs up in mismatches on LB's on passing plays and blocks OL/LBs on running plays ? The favored formation that Manning and the Colts won a scoring record with ?

    Go back to playing Madden, you now have ZERO (in caps) credibility.

    R
  19. njpatsfan

    njpatsfan Rookie

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    Great post, AJ - I always learn something. Perhaps too nuanced for these two, but the rest of us appreciate it.

    R
  20. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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