Pistol Is No Gimmick And Stopping It Will Be A Priority In 2013

[PatsFans.com Article]

Pistol Is No Gimmick And Stopping It Will Be A Priority In 2013
By: Steve Balestrieri

It would have been interesting to see how the Patriots opted to defend it the second time around....

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[IllegalContact]

defending the 'pistol'

I think I have the answer to the latest trend.....

I call it the 2-5

basically, its 2 NT's......big ones......wilfork and another fairly mobile 350lb guy

the idea is to controll the 4 gaps with 2 guys....and turn it into a numbers game against the rest of the OL these 2 don't occupy. It would require that the '5' have both strength and speed......3 bigger guys with 2 who can put their hand down or stand up, and 1 who is your prototypical 2-gap 3-4 ILB like mayo.......the last 2 are basically tampa 2 speed guys ... I would like to call them strong LB and free LB.....their purpose is to offset what the QB can do by providing a larger area of coverage for whatever the pistol brings.

NT - 330-350
NT - 330-350

big LB - 270-275
big LB - 270-275
mid LB - 250
speed LB - 235
speed LB - 235

 

[Sciz]

Re: defending the 'pistol'

You basically just described what the Pats did for most of the season, except that they were a little smaller on the DL and quite a bit bigger at LB. I think that even if you have two nose tackles like that, teams will find ways to get blockers on the LBs, and you have too many small linebackers that that would open up holes.

 

[IllegalContact]

Re: defending the 'pistol'

You basically just described what the Pats did for most of the season, except that they were a little smaller on the DL and quite a bit bigger at LB. I think that even if you have two nose tackles like that, teams will find ways to get blockers on the LBs, and you have too many small linebackers that that would open up holes.

its nothing like what the pats did the whole season.....nothing at all......

on any inside run play, there will be an extra body (LB) in the middle......it forces more pressure on the OL to find the bodies to block......

 

[Sciz]

Re: defending the 'pistol'

its nothing like what the pats did the whole season.....nothing at all......

Two two-gapping DTs over the guards? Check
Two "DEs" that can either have their hands down to make it a 4-3 or hands up to make it a 2-5? Check
A big LB in the middle? Check
Two faster LBs on the outsides? Check

The only difference is that you think you can get away with much smaller LBs, which I think is a terrible idea that would be exploited by good teams.

 

[everlong]

Re: defending the 'pistol'

I think I have the answer to the latest trend.....

basically, its 2 NT's......big ones......wilfork and another fairly mobile 350lb guy

NT - 330-350
NT - 330-350

It's pretty rare to find two guys that large who can be both two gappers and have mobility on the same roster. Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa come to mind and that defense didn't suck and there was Ted Washington with Pat Williams but those are exceptions. Even combos like Henderson and Stroud or Pat and Kevin Williams one of the pair was in the 310 range.

If they were to go after John Jenkins of GA and go 2-5-4 as a base I wouldn't be against it not only against the pistol but in general. That would be a ton of immovable beef in the middle and they could really disguise their scheme.

 

[BTTA]

Re: defending the 'pistol'

It's pretty rare to find two guys that large who can be both two gappers and have mobility on the same roster. Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa come to mind and that defense didn't suck and there was Ted Washington with Pat Williams but those are exceptions. Even combos like Henderson and Stroud or Pat and Kevin Williams one of the pair was in the 310 range.

This. Having one of these guys is a luxury. It's like good offensive tackles - few teams actually have two of them (there was a good article on this recently). Having two guys who consistently eat up two gaps in the middle is something only one or two teams have in any given year. There are many years when there isn't a combo like that in the league on any team.

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: defending the 'pistol'

It's pretty rare to find two guys that large who can be both two gappers and have mobility on the same roster. Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa come to mind and that defense didn't suck and there was Ted Washington with Pat Williams but those are exceptions. Even combos like Henderson and Stroud or Pat and Kevin Williams one of the pair was in the 310 range.

If they were to go after John Jenkins of GA and go 2-5-4 as a base I wouldn't be against it not only against the pistol but in general. That would be a ton of immovable beef in the middle and they could really disguise their scheme.

OTG and I were advocating the 2-4-5 and 2-5-4 last Spring. It has a lot of advantages, but it requires two studs in the middle. There are about 4-7 DTs in this draft who have the size, length, strength and athleticism to potentially play that kind of role:

- Star Lotulelei
- Jesse Williams
- Johnathan Hankins
- John Jenkins
----------------------
- Sylvester Williams (possibly, though less certain)
- Brandon Williams (has the frame and the athletic ability, may need a bit more time to develop given his small school background)
- William Campbell (has the frame and the ability, but very inconsistent in college)

Almost every mock I've done for the Pats has had one of those guys as a likely target. I don't see guys like Sharrif Floyd or Kawann Short being strong enough to play that role, so I've been less focused on them, though others might prioritize a penetrating DT more.

 

[IllegalContact]

Re: defending the 'pistol'

Two two-gapping DTs over the guards? Check
Two "DEs" that can either have their hands down to make it a 4-3 or hands up to make it a 2-5? Check
A big LB in the middle? Check
Two faster LBs on the outsides? Check

The only difference is that you think you can get away with much smaller LBs, which I think is a terrible idea that would be exploited by good teams.

who said anything about faster LB's on the outside? and who are our 'faster' LB's and how fast are they?

you're missing the point completely

 

[patriotsdynasty12189]

Re: defending the 'pistol'

Just stay at home in your gaps, dont over commit to one player, force the running back to get the ball inside and have the outside backers hold the edge down. Sometimes the most advanced offensive play can be stopped by basic fundamentals.

 

[everlong]

Re: defending the 'pistol'

OTG and I were advocating the 2-4-5 and 2-5-4 last Spring. It has a lot of advantages, but it requires two studs in the middle. There are about 4-7 DTs in this draft who have the size, length, strength and athleticism to potentially play that kind of role:

- Star Lotulelei
- Jesse Williams
- Johnathan Hankins
- John Jenkins
----------------------
- Sylvester Williams (possibly, though less certain)
- Brandon Williams (has the frame and the athletic ability, may need a bit more time to develop given his small school background)
- William Campbell (has the frame and the ability, but very inconsistent in college)

Almost every mock I've done for the Pats has had one of those guys as a likely target. I don't see guys like Sharrif Floyd or Kawann Short being strong enough to play that role, so I've been less focused on them, though others might prioritize a penetrating DT more.

I've been floating the 2-5-4 around in my head for a while as well. Of that entire list however only Jenkins is over 330 at a listed 359. I really like Jenkins and Hankins. Jenkins could be Ted Washington in a few years. Hankins could actually play 3-4 NT or DE and 4-3 DT and is more athletic at 320. They'll both be gone before we pick.

 

[lurker1965]

16 lousy teams will start using it. Being lousy, they will still be lousy, but they will provide practice against it.

 

[lurker1965]

Re: defending the 'pistol'

I think I have the answer to the latest trend.....

I call it the 2-5

basically, its 2 NT's......big ones......wilfork and another fairly mobile 350lb guy

the idea is to controll the 4 gaps with 2 guys....and turn it into a numbers game against the rest of the OL these 2 don't occupy. It would require that the '5' have both strength and speed......3 bigger guys with 2 who can put their hand down or stand up, and 1 who is your prototypical 2-gap 3-4 ILB like mayo.......the last 2 are basically tampa 2 speed guys ... I would like to call them strong LB and free LB.....their purpose is to offset what the QB can do by providing a larger area of coverage for whatever the pistol brings.

NT - 330-350
NT - 330-350

big LB - 270-275
big LB - 270-275
mid LB - 250
speed LB - 235
speed LB - 235

Assuming that is easier said than done...
The weakness of any QB runs thing is the QB is exposed to hits. Every. Play. And the traditional way is everyone has a man. "So you pitched to the trailing back? So what? You are still my man and I'm going to hit you as violently as I can, and oh, you are a running back without the protective QB skirt. Next to me is a Safety whose job is the RB who would hit the RB even if you did not pitch it to him."
After week 3 there will be 50% attrition of QBs.

 

[RelocatedPatFan]

The Pistol Offense

i haven't seen much of this discussion in the forum and basically how to defend such a tactic.

While it seems to be both an old concept with a new spin, it seems to take a "different" kind of QB to effectively pull it off. Kaepernick seems to be the ideal type to pull this, but it seems to need other elements to successfully pull this off.

1. A balanced offensive line that handles the run/pass fairly well.
2. A RB or two that can block and handle fakes/receiving
3. A QB who is fast and has a reasonable arm
4. A QB that can make reads fairly quickly

Indeed is does seem very hard to stop with the right QB, but I haven't seen too many segments on defending it properly.

I see some people (like dilfer) saying it's here to stay and will become the dominant offensive style for a period of time. And seen some segments on why it works so well, but nothing (other than hit the QB) on how to defend it.

My big question is this? Defenses probably have a difficult time (presently) because there's not much film on Kaepernick and haven't really put much thought into defending/game planning for it. Still, they have lost games so it's no gimme.

But, I see one thing that people don't really talk about. Film. Cam Newton took the league by storm his first year and was completely quiet the next year. Defenses, given some time can really figure people out and quite quickly. While SF might win today, next year may make for a vastly different experience for this offense. Seattle, Arizona and St. Louis will be seeing the 49ers twice next year and 2 of those teams are defensive in nature...should be interesting.

 

[RelocatedPatFan]

And if it is coming back, does this mean someone might try ti pick up Tebow and make this happen. Granted, he'll still have accuracy issues, but does seem to play into his type of game.

Full time, not gimmick wild cat schemes where it's much easier to predict the play.