Pioli's lousy drafts killing our roster/depth

[blackglass3]

Homer, I have Matt Cassel and F because he is horrible. Poor pocket presence, bad throws, poor reads and holds on to the ball way to long.

I gave the D an A ( even though the are sub-par), the running game an A and the coaching an A last night. Last nights win had little to nothing to do with Cassel, he stinks. He managed to get sacked a bunch of times, and not convert on the many chances he had in the red zone. He will never be anything more than a poor NFL starter.

Your screen name is wildly inaccurate.

Maybe you should join your buddy mcbee at whatever dark cupboard he got nerf'ed to.

 

[ScottieC]

sorry, I don't feel like doing that. I don't care about other teams besides the Pats. The facts are, the Pats have had bad drafts.

The Facts According to THEARCHIVES.

Okey Dokey. I'm sticking with the 3 Lombardi's, 4 trips to the Super Bowl and the 18-1 Season.

And they hung 40 Burger on the Donkeys, with a lot of back ups that we aquired thru the....draft.

 

[emoney_33]

sorry, I don't feel like doing that. I don't care about other teams besides the Pats. The facts are, the Pats have had bad drafts.

"bad drafts" relative to what? If no team in the league had no more than 1 draft pick starting would it still be "bad"? You can't make a statement like that without something to compare it to. Offer some proof if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

sorry, I don't feel like doing that. I don't care about other teams besides the Pats. The facts are, the Pats have had bad drafts.

Then how can you say the Pats had bad drafts. The Patriots on that 4 year span drafted on average .5 pro-bowlers per year.

I don't know what the league average was over those 4 years but if it was .85 then I would agree with you we had bad drafts.

OTOH, if the league average over those 4 years was .23 and only one team did better than .5, then I would say we did excellent.

There is no way to say the draft was horrible (or great) absent a comparison of other teams.

 

[PATSNUTme]

According to the Sporting News Draft Guide the Patriots and 3 other teams have a 5 year Grade of B+. Only the Chargers have a better grade at A-.

That does not include the 2008 draft class. With Mayo leading the way, I don't see much change.

So that puts us in the top 5 of 32 teams.

 

[BadMoFo]

According to the Sporting News Draft Guide the Patriots and 3 other teams have a 5 year Grade of B+. Only the Chargers have a better grade at A-.

That does not include the 2008 draft class. With Mayo leading the way, I don't see much change.

So that puts us in the top 5 of 32 teams.

I don't know. NSA, D-Money, maryjane and thearchives obviously know better than this Sporting News thing you are talking about. What is that?

 

[Rob0729]

I'm probably the only one that will say this is actually a good post. It's the truth. BB and Pioli have had some terrible drafts lately. However, I thought trading up for Chad Jackson was a brilliant move at the time. I thought Maroney was going to be an instant star. Aside from Brady, Samuel and Koppen, the Pats have struggled in mid to late round picks. In fact, their are a lot of wasted picks since 2004. Also, the trading out of picks during the draft have irritated a lot fans when the Pats had the chance to take LB's like David Harris or Lamar Woodley who is tearing it up in Pittsburgh. Also, the result of spygate and the loss of that first round pick is already hurting them. They could have had another DB in the backfield right now.

And National Sports Advisors is right, just because you start, doesn't mean your good.

I willing to put up the Pats draft the last few years against most other teams. Other than perenial cellar dwellars, I bet most teams don't have more than 1-3 draft picks be a success on average each year. If you have 4 or 5 draft picks being contributors year in and year out, you have a crap team.

Most perenial Super Bowl contenders just don't keep a lot of rookies. That is a fact of life. If you are have a solid team from top to bottom only a certain number of roster spots are available. If you are legitimate Super Bowl contender with good depth, you just can't hide and develop players.

I admit some of the last few drafts haven't been that good. I give them a pass for last year's draft because it was obvious they hated that draft based on their effort to get out of that draft by trading picks for players and future picks.

My biggest problem with the original post is that he judges every pick on the same level. You can't do that. Your expectations of a seventh round pick can't be the same as a first. For example, Cassel is a spectacular seventh round pick. He has been the number 2 QB for three years and the starter this year. That is far more you can expect for a seventh rounder. He did the same thing with players like Ellis Hobbs, Nick Kazcur, James Sanders, and others. You can make the case that those players were bad picks if they were drafted in the first two rounds, but as third or fourth round picks, they are pretty good to great picks. Ryan O'Callahan and LeKevin Smith was a good pick for sixth rounders. You can't expect a sixth rounder to be more than a back up. Anything more is a bonus.

 

[National Sports Advisors]

Whats the matter number "deus" , you upset the mean, realistic, non-homer is speaking the truth? I love the bafoons trying to defend some of these poor drafts we have had.

Exactly. That's why I don't waste my time posting anymore on this website. it's homerville and you can't criticize them at all. They are PERFECT and can do no wrong.

 

[BadMoFo]

Exactly. That's why I don't waste my time posting anymore on this website. it's homerville and you can't criticize them at all. They are PERFECT and can do no wrong.

You know criticizing the team isn't bad, I do it myself some times. However, it's your timing. If you would have done this a week ago, maybe no one would have minded as much.

Today, a day everyone here is feeling better about the team, you decide to post this. It really comes off as trolling, which I'm sure was the whole point of your post, seeing as how you posted the exact same content a year ago.

 

[JDSal45]

Rating the 2005 draft a C+ in which you have 3 starters (4 if you count Cassel) while being a defending Super Bowl team is beyond idiocy. I have to conclude you know next to nothing about the NFL.

Go look at other team's drafts. Yes, you'll be unable to rate the players because its clear you know little about personnel or the players selected unless they play for the Patriots (in which case your views are hopelessly negative as a typical "alls I wanna do is *****" fan).

But if you are able to objectively learn the prodcution and contributions of players other teams drafted those same years and objectively and intelligently put it all in context (what else was obtained....who were they playing against.....what was the depth of the teams they were drafted by), which I highly doubt, you may be able to come up with an actual real, relevant analysis. But I won't hold my breath.

J D Sal

 

[stinkypete]

The problem here is that the frint office set the bar impossibly high with the 2003 draft, it was a catylist for the dynasty. Warren, Geno, Bethel Johnson, Kleko, Koppen, Asante and TBC all contributed in some way as rookies. Belichick and Pioli were annointed the ultimate draft masters, and with this high level of expectation anything less is a disapointment.

Fact of the matter is an average draft probably produces about 3 players who stick around for the length of their rookie deals. A good draft produces 4 or so players and a couple of starters.

My assessment:

2004 - Disapointing overall. Wilfork was a slam dunk and Watson, while an underachiever, is hardly a bust. I thought Hill and Scott would develop into major roles on the team.

2005 - One of the better overall drafts of the Belichick/Pioli era, producing 4 long term starters. This class is a favorite for the haters, which I do not understand. Hobbs has been our best defensive back this year, Sanders is a decent starter and Cassell has outperformed his entire QB class excepting Aaron Rodgers and Jason Campbell (and maybe Orton). Solid group.

2006 - This is turning out to be the worst draft of the Belichick era, IMO. This was a deep draft and the Pats had some bargaining chips. So far Gostowski is the standout here, he and Maroney are the only two players to make any kind of significant contibution, and Maroney;s future seems to be somewhat in question

2007 - This draft must be defined in terms of the deals that were made. Getting Moss, Welker and the pick that eventually produced Mayo were masterstroke moves. This was a crap draft talent wise. Meriweather looks like he will be a good safety. Several teams will not be able to say that about their 2007 1st round picks.

 

[jmt57]

While I appreciate you attacking Pioli after he and Belichick have brought this organization three championships, I'd be very curious to find out the actual data on each individual team and who really has drafted the best since 2005. This would include the number of players drafted and the percentage of them who are still in the NFL at this point leaguewide.

It's one thing to say they suck. It's another thing to make that kind of statement and not compare it against the rest of the league. After all, how they stack up against the league is what matters, and last I checked prior to this season (and it's still early) they're not too bad. - Ian

Perfectly said, my exact thoughts. How can one say the draft was good or bad if we have nothing to compare it too? I know for example, I could cherry pick a couple of good or bad drafts by other teams to prove a point either way, but unless you are comparing all drafts by all teams over that time span, with specific benchmarks (e.g., pro bowls, player rankings, games started, team won-loss record improvement, etc.) - and not just 'he's nothing special' hyperbole - then these grades are meaningless.

 

[Steamer86]

2004 NFL DRAFT
1 21(21) Vince Wilfork* DT Miami (FL)
1 32(32) Benjamin Watson TE Georgia
2 31(63) Marquise Hill* DE LSU
3 32(95) Guss Scott S Florida
4 17(113) Dexter Reid S North Carolina
4 32(128) Cedric Cobbs RB Arkansas
5 32(164) P.K. Sam* WR Florida St.
7 32(233) Christian Morton CB Illinois

Summary: NONE of the players drafted after the 1st rd are even in the NFL anymore. Wilfork is a pro-bowler while Watson has never truly lived up to the hype. Grade: C+

2005 NFL DRAFT
1 32(32) Logan Mankins OG Fresno St.
3 20(84) Ellis Hobbs CB Iowa St.
3 37(100) Nick Kaczur OT Toledo
4 32(133) James Sanders S Fresno St.
5 34(170) Ryan Claridge OLB UNLV
7 16(230) Matt Cassel QB Southern Cal
7 41(255) Andy Stokes TE William Penn

Summary: Mankins is a pro-bowler while the rest of this cast is nothing special. In fact, this is the kind of draft that a TON of mediocre franchises produce year after year. Grade: C+

2006 NFL DRAFT
1 21 (21) Laurence Maroney, RB, Minnesota
2 4-d (36) Chad Jackson, WR, Florida
3 22 (86) David Thomas, TE, Texas
4 9-b (106) Garret Mills, TE, Tulsa
4 21 (118) Stephen Gostkowski, K, Memphis
5 3-c (136) Ryan O'Callaghan , OT, California
6 22-* (191) Jeremy Mincey, OL/DE, Florida
6 36-* (205) Dan Stevenson, OL, Notre Dame
6 37 (206) Le Kevin Smith, NT, Nebraska
7 21 (209) Willie Andrews, CB/S, Baylor

Summary: In a one word: TERRIBLE. Outside of Gostowski, absolutely awful. Maroney has given us ok production..........if he was a 4th rounder! Not good enough for the #21 pick in the entire draft. If Bobby Grier was drafting like this we would be calling for his job. GRADE: C-

2007 NFL DRAFT:
1 24 (24) Brandon Meriweather S Miami (FL)
4 28 (127) Kareem Brown DT Miami (FL)
5* 34 (171) Clint Oldenburg OL Colorado State University
6 6 (180) Justin Rogers DE Southern Methodist University
6 28 (202) Mike Richardson CB Notre Dame
6* 34 (208) Justise Hairston RB Central Connecticut State
6* 35 (209) Corey Hilliard T Oklahoma State
7 1 (211) Oscar Lua ILB USC
7* 37 (247) Mike Elgin OL University of Iowa

Summary: The jury is still out on Merriweather and Richardson, but the rest of these guys aren't even in the league nevermind on our team. Again, just another mediocre AT BEST draft. GRADE: INCOMPLETE but heading towards a C or C- AT BEST.

Fellas, you can hoot and holler all you want about trading picks for the Wes Welker's and Randy Moss's of the world and I will agree. That's great. However, there's no denying that Pioli's actual draft picks the last 4 years have been mediocre at best. These guys aren't making an impact in this league on ANY team nevermind our own. So stop with the excuse that our roster is so STACKED that these picks couldn't make our team. They can't make ANY team for cris sakes! We are not getting ANYTHING of significance after the 1st rd with any of these drafts. NOTHING. The days of getting Matt Light, Deion Branch, Tom Brady, Dan Koppen, and Jarvis Green in the middle rounds are long gone. When are people going to stop kissing Pioli's backside and start holding him accountable for these MEDICORE drafts? It's getting old hearing about what a GENIUS he is. He deserved those accolades for his first 3 drafts with the club but he has really fallen off BIG TIME.

How many times must this be posted? OK great, the last couple drafts have not been as good (although like many have said - Meri, Moss and Welker were pretty good in 2007 and 2008 looks good so far)....What is your point and what are you responding to? I don't see many posts claiming Pioli's last few drafts have been stellar.....

 

[apple strudel]

NSA is a great troll - he still gets responses after being repeatedly shown to be ridiculously wrong. I love how he excludes relevant information like (as has been pointed out) comparisons to other teams' drafts and understanding how many college players available could even make this team. There's no truth-seeking here. Just a big yawn. But he gets everybody's ire every time. It's a little sad, really.

 

[jmt57]

Wow! This is must be what living life after a lobotomy is like. You win the award for the dumbest post of the month. After this past month, that is quite an achievement.

I may have to use this line as my new signature.

 

[National Sports Advisors]

Ellis Hobbs stinks. I don't know why people keep using him as testimony for the 2005 draft. He gets picked on at will more than any other #1 corner in this league. Just because he starts does not mean he is good. It just means we have nobody better to play. In case you guys have been on an island somewhere, it's not like our backups would be starting for anyone else in this league. Hell, our #2 guy Deltha O'Neal starts and wouldn't be starting anywhere either. Face it, Hobbs starts because of a lack of talent at the position. Bottom line. Billy "I can't block a turtle" Yates was starting the last few weeks for Neal. Does that mean Yates is a good player? LOL! Some of you will make excuse after excuse for everything Belichick and Pioli do.

 

[memento]

Ellis Hobbs stinks. I don't know why people keep using him as testimony for the 2005 draft. He gets picked on at will more than any other #1 corner in this league. Just because he starts does not mean he is good. It just means we have nobody better to play. In case you guys have been on an island somewhere, it's not like our backups would be starting for anyone else in this league. Hell, our #2 guy Deltha O'Neal starts and wouldn't be starting anywhere either. Face it, Hobbs starts because of a lack of talent at the position. Bottom line. Billy "I can't block a turtle" Yates was starting the last few weeks for Neal. Does that mean Yates is a good player? LOL! Some of you will make excuse after excuse for everything Belichick and Pioli do.

we've always had small corners teams think they can pick on. we've won super bowls with them. i dont know how we do it either, but i know hobbs amazes me every game defending receivers twice his size.

 

[National Sports Advisors]

we've always had small corners teams think they can pick on. we've won super bowls with them. i dont know how we do it either, but i know hobbs amazes me every game defending receivers twice his size.

Ya he did a great job defending Buress when WE NEEDED HIM to in the final minute of the super bowl. Give me a break. The guy is terrible. For cris sakes, how many #1 corners in this league can't cover Frank Gore on a post with JT O'Sullivan throwing the ball?!? Did you miss that 3 weeks ago? Good lord.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

Ellis Hobbs stinks. I don't know why people keep using him as testimony for the 2005 draft. He gets picked on at will more than any other #1 corner in this league. Just because he starts does not mean he is good. It just means we have nobody better to play. In case you guys have been on an island somewhere, it's not like our backups would be starting for anyone else in this league. Hell, our #2 guy Deltha O'Neal starts and wouldn't be starting anywhere either. Face it, Hobbs starts because of a lack of talent at the position. Bottom line. Billy "I can't block a turtle" Yates was starting the last few weeks for Neal. Does that mean Yates is a good player? LOL! Some of you will make excuse after excuse for everything Belichick and Pioli do.

If our players stink so bad and couldn't start anywhere else how the hell did we win 18 games last year?

 

[Patslifer]

NSA is a great troll - he still gets responses after being repeatedly shown to be ridiculously wrong. I love how he excludes relevant information like (as has been pointed out) comparisons to other teams' drafts and understanding how many college players available could even make this team. There's no truth-seeking here. Just a big yawn. But he gets everybody's ire every time. It's a little sad, really.

Says who, you? NSA has said Maroney is injury prone, Jackson is a bust, Hobbs is a scrub and Seymour is washed up. How is that wrong? Take of the delusional glasses "apple strudel" (oh brother what a name) and wake up!


For the record, I don't think Hobbs is a scrub.