Welcome to PatsFans.com

Pioli discusses the evolution of grading players due to changes in the NFL

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Ron Sellers, Feb 23, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Ron Sellers

    Ron Sellers Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Here's an interesting piece in today's Boston Herald. Former Patriots VP of player personnel Scott Pioli discusses changes the Patriots made in the way they grade players due to the changes in the way the game is played today; specifically in regards to how sub packages are so prevalent now that you don't look at certain players, or the positions they play (such as a nickel corner) as a backup.

    Rap Sheet » Allow former Patriots VP Scott Pioli to remind us about the Patriots scouting system…


    The last two years at the Patriots, when it came down to stacking the board, Bill and I were getting frustrated with the stacking because the game had changed and evolved,” Pioli said. “We were talking about how the value of the third corner (is) really (that of) 60 percent players. And someone who is a 60 percent player was… the third corner is the starter in today’s game. And it was back then. We were talking about guys who could be third corners and not ranking them high enough. They weren’t given high enough grades.

    Now, with as many teams as are putting their nickel and dime packages on the field for more than 50 percent of the game, they were starters. Pioli and Belichick, for drafting purposes, wanted to make sure a third CB or third WR wasn’t ranked as a backup… since they weren’t.

    The reality is, the third corner, the third receiver, the sub safety, you can’t just say, he’s a backup corner,” Pioli continued. “The value of that backup corner is much greater. What I spent a lot of time doing is re-doing our whole grading system. Thomas (Dimitroff) and I, then spent more time re-doing the grading system. Me, Bill (Belichick), Ernie Adams, and Thomas and then we started using that the last couple years. Then, Thomas leaves and took it down (to Atlanta), Phil (Emery) took it from Thomas. And when I came to Kansas City, I tried teaching this system that’s different. Because everyone essentially uses the same grading system and fortunately Phil knew it. So, when I hired Phil, he came in and he helped teach it.”​
  2. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2005
    Messages:
    19,949
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -0

    Pioli discusses the Patriots system for scouting, grading and ranking draft picks

    Always anticipating or ahead of the curve and always approaching any subject from a value standpoint. I would bet they evaluate veterans and their own roster the same way.

    http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/s...remind-us-about-the-patriots-scouting-system/
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2012
  3. nabwong

    nabwong PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2007
    Messages:
    2,332
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    Re: Pioli discusses the Patriots system for scouting, grading and ranking draft picks

    The biggest crutch in life is tradition (social pressure). No matter what we do (science, religion, sports, politics, etc), change is always resisted. This is partly why this organization is so successful. BB is a student of history but he knows that he can't implement history. What he studies is the changes throughout history.
  4. condon84

    condon84 Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2008
    Messages:
    4,301
    Likes Received:
    21
    Ratings:
    +59 / 5 / -2

    Re: Pioli discusses the Patriots system for scouting, grading and ranking draft picks

    It's crazy to hear that BB values the nickle corner as essentially another starter yet we've drafted poorly in that area the past few years. Whoever is evaluating the CBs for the scouting department needs to get his ***** together.
  5. Armchair Quarterback

    Armchair Quarterback Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    2,666
    Likes Received:
    31
    Ratings:
    +107 / 4 / -2

    #37 Jersey

    So they're elevating "backup" defensive backs grades because they technically won't be backups. Drafting nickel backs in the 2nd round and wondering why they don't work out. Is this why the drafted Wheatley over Terrell Thomas? Sometimes they out think themselves.
  6. Ron Sellers

    Ron Sellers Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense since those two play the same position.



    With the benefit of hindsight anyone can play the 'shoulda' drafted this guy instead' game with all 32 teams.
  7. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2006
    Messages:
    7,716
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +58 / 0 / -13

    Similarly, the #4 CB stands on average to play a lot more than the #4 OT, and substantially more than even the #3.
  8. Armchair Quarterback

    Armchair Quarterback Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    2,666
    Likes Received:
    31
    Ratings:
    +107 / 4 / -2

    #37 Jersey

    They play the same position but Wheatley's grade may very well have been artificially elevated because they envisioned him a a "starting nickel back".

    I didn't need the benefit of hindsight to know which one to pick, I wanted them to choose Thomas or Godfrey at the time and disliked the Wheatley pick. Pioli just explained the probable reasoning behind the choice.
  9. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2005
    Messages:
    19,949
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -0

    Pioli tried to use another example but he should have avoided the nickle back at all cost since you guys are now fixated on that...and entirely missing the point of the comments...which of course isn't all that unusual hereabouts.
  10. Armchair Quarterback

    Armchair Quarterback Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    2,666
    Likes Received:
    31
    Ratings:
    +107 / 4 / -2

    #37 Jersey

    I made one comment about a player before having to defend it against the always present "benefit of hindsight argument." That hardly constitutes a fixation.

    And judging by what Pioli said, what has been invested in the position and the quality of players at the position on the roster are, I would say it's a worthwhile discussion.
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2012
  11. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    41,862
    Likes Received:
    389
    Ratings:
    +1,130 / 52 / -64

    Disable Jersey

    This is a message board where people post on the draft for months at a time(if not all year long), and where others spend the draft days posting their opinions about players in real time . The idea that it's all hindsight is just not a valid argument.
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2012
  12. Ron Sellers

    Ron Sellers Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Congratulations, you know more about college players than the Patriots entire staff of college scouts do. Please do all fans of this team a favor and convince the Pats to hire you so that we won't ever again have to go through the disappointment of the team drafting the wrong player.

    They both play corner. With Samuel moving on they needed someone else on the outside at the time of the draft. Why the assumption that Wheatley was drafted strictly to play nickel? If they had liked what they saw from Thomas they would have drafted him to play corner opposite Hobbs, then added either a free agent or a later draftee with nickel in mind.

    The Pats made a mistake with Wheatley vs your binky Thomas, or Godfrey; it happens unfortunately. I'm not entirely convinced that it would be any different had they graded the players/roles in the traditional way versus giving the roles of sub packages a higher value.
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2012
  13. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,257
    Likes Received:
    38
    Ratings:
    +102 / 4 / -0

    What I'd love to see, and probably never will (unless BB's eventual book is a lot more forthcoming than I expect) is how the positions are rated relative to each other. Is a #3 corner worth more than a #2 guard, for example? Etc.
  14. chris66

    chris66 Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    some of those 06,07 picks clearly fall on bellichick. for some reason those 2 drafts he went away from the system he and lombardi had designed. chad jackson was a perfect example. None of the scouts, Pioli or Demitroff wanted him, but BB went away from the system because of his speed.

    If you havent read MIKe Holley's "WAR ROOM" yet its a must read.
  15. borg

    borg Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    3,871
    Likes Received:
    57
    Ratings:
    +124 / 5 / -12

    I beieve I understand the nickel CB drafting system under BB. Draft JAG WRs and convert them after you eject the 3/4 of the secondary
  16. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    5,750
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ratings:
    +14 / 2 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    Re: Pioli discusses the Patriots system for scouting, grading and ranking draft picks

    Did we draft poor corners or did we not coach them up and put them in a position to succeed?

    Is it fair to Butler, Wilhite and Merriweather to say you have to cover the best WR's in the game for 6 plus seconds because we have no pass rush and we aren't drafting any pass rushers. Oh and to help you DB's out, here is coach Boyer who doesn;t really have a clue what he is doing, but he works hard and puts in tons of hours. Good luck guys.

    It all starts up front!
  17. BPF

    BPF Rookie

    Joined:
    May 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,469
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0 / -0

    Re: Pioli discusses the Patriots system for scouting, grading and ranking draft picks

    CB's are one of the toughest positions to evaluate, let's not pretend that it's not. As far as the Terrell Thomas v Wheatley argument above, it goes to the fact that not every player can play in all schemes. The ideal CB can play press, off & zone. The BIG problem is there aren’t many of those guys around, especially after the top 10-15 slots in the draft. Most players are better in one skill. Many taller CBs have trouble in off coverage because of their size. Shorter CBs with suddenness can do that better but are not as effective in press. So you look at player and see how he fits your scheme if you're drafting in the 2nd, 3rd Rd etc and see if he can perform one specific function well and maybe he can develop his all around game with experience.

    In any case the most important trait a CB must have is speed. I'm not talking track speed because plenty of players have succeeded with out that but they need to run the 40 under 4.5. A player may be a great college CB but if he's a 4.6 guy he will not get drafted and he will not be successful as a CB. He may be able to succeed in ST's but not on defense. It's a position where speed comes first then all the other factors, if I were doing the scouting I wouldn't draft any player that ran lower than 4.4 in the first 2 Rds.
  18. condon84

    condon84 Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2008
    Messages:
    4,301
    Likes Received:
    21
    Ratings:
    +59 / 5 / -2

    Re: Pioli discusses the Patriots system for scouting, grading and ranking draft picks

    If these guys end up becoming better players then our coaching staff certainly has to shoulder some of the blame for them not developing. However, BB saw something that these guys lacked in practice and in games and deemed it necessary to cut them and instead play guys that were undrafted like Ihedigbo and Arrington.
  19. manxman2601

    manxman2601 On the Roster

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    8,618
    Likes Received:
    181
    Ratings:
    +384 / 7 / -1

    #24 Jersey

    Re: Pioli discusses the Patriots system for scouting, grading and ranking draft picks

    From a philosophical standpoint I'm afraid to say that this so wrong. Tradition is what moulds us. We are the sum of everything that happened before us. Change is not in and of itself a good thing. What tradition, history and custom provide is the natural brake to unfettered and inadvisable change. Evolution is better than revolution.
  20. MaineMan

    MaineMan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,895
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    What "JAG WRs" were drafted and converted to DB?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>