PFW's Read On ILBs

[14thDragon]

First day is a reasonable description of "early". Casale's description of Siler is what really got me thinking about this. If he is truly just a 2-down run-stuffer, then he would be involved in short yardage and goal line...and probably not much else since he would be too easy to gameplan against.

Well, even if the guy is considered a "run-stuffer" it is not as if the guy would be completely usless in passing situations. He might not be running 20 yds down field with the TE or slot reciever, but he would be chucking them at the line and tieing up the RB from getting open. Since you would usually pair such a guy up with a better coverage ILB you would not completely leave that area undefended.

Agreed, but not really where I was going with my comments. I don't believe that the Pats need at LB is a run-stuffing specialist (or a pass-rushing specialist or a coverage specialist). While these specialists have value, they take up a roster spot and the Pats would still have a need at LB.

Well, it is not all thae different from having a run-blocking TE. In the base offense, most of the time he is going to be called upon to block, sometimes this is to run the ball, but it does not mean that it has to be a running play.

A run-stopping LB has plently of value in the base defense, but would be a liablity if the opposition goes to spread offense, thats usually when you would pull the LB and put in a nickle corner. Just because the guy cannot run with a WR or an especially athletic TE will not stop him from being a factor in stopping a passing attack as well.

"Siler may be relegated to a two-down run-stopper at the pro level. However, 3-4 teams like the Patriots don’t necessarily consider that to be a bad thing."

I find Casale's comment to be too simplistic at best and (in this era of short passing on early downs) totally off-base at worst.

I go a bit more glass half full way. If Silar turns out to be nothing more then a "run-stuffer" then it is not a wasted pick. It would mean he would have the size and streght to take on guards, get off blocks, and attack at the LOS, help free up the pass rush somewhere else, and mostly make sure that the running back is not making a living between the tackles. Which is not the end of the world. One would hope however he would also have the speed and insticts neccesary to be an asset in coverage as well, but the draft is an inexact science.

 

[PATSNUTme]

It is interesting to see that on PFT's latest Mock Draft he has Willis # 4 overall to the Bucs. Now generally Florio is pretty inept when it comes to making his own analyses in football however he does seem to be the king when it comes to hearing rumblings around the league. I have never until now seen Willis above 10 let alone # 4, obviously his stock is soaring right now and I just don't think the Pats will be able to get him.

 

[TeamPats]

[/B]

I'm with you PATSNUTme, he is a perfect fit on this team and I want him badly. The Patriots will find a way, don't mind my Monday morning assessment.

 

[Metaphors]

Well, it is not all thae different from having a run-blocking TE. In the base offense, most of the time he is going to be called upon to block, sometimes this is to run the ball, but it does not mean that it has to be a running play.

Difference being that on offense you get to choose the play. You can play to someone's strength or use that as a decoy and do the opposite (like throw to Brady on the goal line. On defense, your limitations get exposed. Freeney gets run at. Roy Williams get thrown at.

A run-stopping LB has plently of value in the base defense, but would be a liablity if the opposition goes to spread offense, thats usually when you would pull the LB and put in a nickle corner. Just because the guy cannot run with a WR or an especially athletic TE will not stop him from being a factor in stopping a passing attack as well.

Alexander was exposed without the Colts going to a spread offense. With a base offense (particularly one with a solid receiving RB and TE), you don't know how they will attack you on early downs. I just think the term "2-down" player is out of touch with the times. It really means "limited" in the passing game. Just like being limited in the running game, it is hard to avoid being exposed.

I go a bit more glass half full way. If Silar turns out to be nothing more then a "run-stuffer" then it is not a wasted pick. It would mean he would have the size and streght to take on guards, get off blocks, and attack at the LOS, help free up the pass rush somewhere else, and mostly make sure that the running back is not making a living between the tackles. Which is not the end of the world. One would hope however he would also have the speed and insticts neccesary to be an asset in coverage as well, but the draft is an inexact science.

You're right. You would assume that the Pats wouldn't take anyone at LB who they expected to be incapable of handling all the aspects of the defense, some better than others. So I'm really not opposed to any of your points. I just can't see Casale's point (echoed elsewhere) that the Pats 3-4 is especially suited for a run-stuffing specialist at ILB...when I think recent history has proven the exact opposite to be true.

 

[14thDragon]

Difference being that on offense you get to choose the play. You can play to someone's strength or use that as a decoy and do the opposite (like throw to Brady on the goal line. On defense, your limitations get exposed. Freeney gets run at. Roy Williams get thrown at.

That is why you need to make sure that you compliment your players. If you have a Strong Saftey who is poor in coverage, your better have a free safty that is as good as a third corner. If you DE is primarly a pass rusher, then your tackles should be able to pentrate gaps and stop the run. The 3-4 can have a "run-stuffing" line backer because you can compliment with better coverage guys.

Alexander was exposed without the Colts going to a spread offense. With a base offense (particularly one with a solid receiving RB and TE), you don't know how they will attack you on early downs. I just think the term "2-down" player is out of touch with the times. It really means "limited" in the passing game. Just like being limited in the running game, it is hard to avoid being exposed.

Well, to be fair, there were other contributing factors. Such as the fact that Alexander was not getting safety help, and the pass rush had slowed down considerably. His coverage skills were enough in the first half when DL was holding the LOS and Colvin and Vrable were getting after Manning. Not to mention that it was the guy's first start, and he was not really being asked to stop the run, the scheme called for him to be back in coverage.

You're right. You would assume that the Pats wouldn't take anyone at LB who they expected to be incapable of handling all the aspects of the defense, some better than others. So I'm really not opposed to any of your points. I just can't see Casale's point (echoed elsewhere) that the Pats 3-4 is especially suited for a run-stuffing specialist at ILB...when I think recent history has proven the exact opposite to be true.

Well, in a 4-3 your MLB has to be able to get into coverage, especially if you are dropping your safeties real deep as in a Tampa-2. Otherwise that middle is wide open all day long. In a 3-4, you can have a LB looking to "shoot the gaps", either to stop the run or generate pass rush, since you can let the other LB drop into coverage and maintain the pass defense.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Does a "2-down, run-stuffing" linebacker (and specifically that it is a good fit for the Patriots) sound as stupid to anyone else as it does to me? Makes perfect sense if everyone was forced to run on 1st and 2nd down. You think the Colts, Chargers or Broncos...teams with solid TEs who the Pats are likely to encounter on the way to the Super Bowl...know what to do on early downs with a run-stuffing, no-coverage, no-pass-rush linebacker sitting in the middle of the field? I think they just might.

If the Pats take a LB early in the draft, look for them to get someone they believe can hold their own against the run, rush the passer and drop into coverage. BB still has fresh memories of TEs dancing through his defense. Getting AT was step 1 in purging those memories. Look for that theme to continue in the draft...just like Warren and Wilfork served as therapy for 2002 and Steve Martin.

BB strikes me as someone who is guided by the past but not not constrained by it. I don't think Ted Johnson would have helped much against the Colts, so I'm not convinced BB is interested in finding the next Ted Johnson.

That is one of the reasons that I like Harris. He IS the two down run-stuffer, who is ALSO a good pass coverge LB. In that he is better than TJ in his pass coverage, and almost his equal in size, and run stuffing potential, and better in speed than TJ was. What's not to like in a SILB, that has enough mobility to not embarrass himself with stints as a WILB or be able to handle a situation of the TE lining up on the left side?

 

[sebman2112]

That is one of the reasons that I like Harris. He IS the two down run-stuffer, who is ALSO a good pass coverge LB. In that he is better than TJ in his pass coverage, and almost his equal in size, and run stuffing potential, and better in speed than TJ was. What's not to like in a SILB, that has enough mobility to not embarrass himself with stints as a WILB or be able to handle a situation of the TE lining up on the left side?

That's why you make the trade with GB, take Willis at 16 (I hope he falls), then take Harris at 47. How's that for solving the ILB problem for at least the next 4 years.

Or

Take Revis at 16(if Willis is gone, likely), Harris at 47, Bradley or Gattis at 91, DeOssie or Wendling in the fourth.

I still wish NE could land one of these RB's somewhere in the draft, though:
Brandon Jackson
Dwayne Wright
Lorenzo Booker
DeShaun Wynn
Chris Henry
Michael Bush (depending on how bad his leg actually is, He might fall pretty far, or even out of the draft.)

 

[SamBamsFan]

That's why you make the trade with GB, take Willis at 16 (I hope he falls), then take Harris at 47. How's that for solving the ILB problem for at least the next 4 years.

Or

Take Revis at 16(if Willis is gone, likely), Harris at 47, Bradley or Gattis at 91, DeOssie or Wendling in the fourth.

I still wish NE could land one of these RB's somewhere in the draft, though:
Brandon Jackson
Dwayne Wright
Lorenzo Booker
DeShaun Wynn
Chris Henry
Michael Bush (depending on how bad his leg actually is, He might fall pretty far, or even out of the draft.)

W/ Petrino now coaching Atlanta, I doubt that he is undrafted.

 

[dryheat44]

Does a "2-down, run-stuffing" linebacker (and specifically that it is a good fit for the Patriots) sound as stupid to anyone else as it does to me? Makes perfect sense if everyone was forced to run on 1st and 2nd down. You think the Colts, Chargers or Broncos...teams with solid TEs who the Pats are likely to encounter on the way to the Super Bowl...know what to do on early downs with a run-stuffing, no-coverage, no-pass-rush linebacker sitting in the middle of the field? I think they just might.

I don't know. Anytime you can get a team to abandon the run and become one-dimensional, it's a good thing. Even the Colts. Especially when you can do it with seven men in the box.

 

[VJCPatriot]

That's why you make the trade with GB, take Willis at 16 (I hope he falls), then take Harris at 47. How's that for solving the ILB problem for at least the next 4 years.

Or

Take Revis at 16(if Willis is gone, likely), Harris at 47, Bradley or Gattis at 91, DeOssie or Wendling in the fourth.

I still wish NE could land one of these RB's somewhere in the draft, though:
Brandon Jackson
Dwayne Wright
Lorenzo Booker
DeShaun Wynn
Chris Henry
Michael Bush (depending on how bad his leg actually is, He might fall pretty far, or even out of the draft.)

We have 4 6th round picks, so the Pats are on of those teams that could easily take a flyer on a guy like Bush/Booker/Henry. Doubt Henry lasts that long due to his insane 40 times though. He probably just earned himself a first day selection.

If Willis drops to 15 or 16, I could certainly see a trade of both of our first rounders for a team's mid 1st and mid 2nd pick. Might be value for us in that move.

 

[cstjohn17]

I don't know. Anytime you can get a team to abandon the run and become one-dimensional, it's a good thing. Even the Colts. Especially when you can do it with seven men in the box.

Bingo! If you can stop the run and run the ball you are going to win a lot of games. Against Indy in the second half we couldn't stop the run or the pass.

Our best championship teams (2003 & 2004) had dominant front sevens, if we get similar production in 07 the team is going to be very very good.