PFT: Seymour could miss season

[RayClay]

I'm a little surprised this thread hasn't picked up more on the one post that mentioned Holley saying that he's comfortable saying the Seymour rumor is NOT TRUE. That's a big deal. No one is calmed by this at all?

Make up your mind. Should we pay attention to only credible sources now?

To tell you the truth, there's so much baseless gossip out there, even in newspapers, that i only trust when Reiss says something.

Sad, but true.

 

[patchick]

PFT was correct on the Moss to the Patriots rumors.

Wrong on the Moss to the Packers rumors

Wrong on the Moss to the Jets rumors

This brings up a question. Is a rumor of a possible trade "false" if the trade doesn't happen? By all accounts Green Bay WAS talking trade for Moss, and Favre was pissed that it didn't come through. So a rumor that the Packers were actively in the market for Moss should count as a gold star, no?

Rumors of "interest" and "talks" etc. will never yield a perfect record in terms of actual trades, signings and draft picks. Circumstances change; deals fall through. (Maybe the Patriots would indeed have drafted LB David Harris if they hadn't gotten a trade offer to their liking. How the heck do we know?) So even if Florio's rumors were 100% accurate as rumors we'd be able to point to "rumblings" of "discussions" that didn't pan out as reason to discount his site. I don't discount it myself -- I accept its vast limitations but appreciate its strengths.

Here's my personal opinion of PFT:

- Florio has developed an incredible pipeline and breaks a LOT of stories. I think we take too much for granted in that regard--there's a ton we wouldn't know if PFT hadn't brought it too the surface. For instance, I think he deserves a lot of credit for the better public understanding of contracts today, especially puffed-up numbers.

- Florio knows a lot more about the business of football than he does about the game of football. When he tries to make predictions or weigh in on the various merits of players, I quickly scroll away.

- Florio has a massive ego and a yen for drama that sometimes gets in the way of sound judgment.

- Florio has become so influential in league inner circles that he's now at risk of sabotage. I'm certain that some folks are starting to plant disinformation with him at this point, and he has no way of telling the wheat from the chaff. This will do him in if he doesn't get a handle on it.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

though when i "consider the source" i doubt the report, nonetheless i have written him out myself. i'm not an orthopod, but i do think there's a point at which a knee can't recover to the point of playing in the NFL.

 

[RayClay]

This brings up a question. Is a rumor of a possible trade "false" if the trade doesn't happen? By all accounts Green Bay WAS talking trade for Moss, and Favre was pissed that it didn't come through. So a rumor that the Packers were actively in the market for Moss should count as a gold star, no?

Rumors of "interest" and "talks" etc. will never yield a perfect record in terms of actual trades, signings and draft picks. Circumstances change; deals fall through. (Maybe the Patriots would indeed have drafted LB David Harris if they hadn't gotten a trade offer to their liking. How the heck do we know?) So even if Florio's rumors were 100% accurate as rumors we'd be able to point to "rumblings" of "discussions" that didn't pan out as reason to discount his site. I don't discount it myself -- I accept its vast limitations but appreciate its strengths.

Here's my personal opinion of PFT:

- Florio has developed an incredible pipeline and breaks a LOT of stories. I think we take too much for granted in that regard--there's a ton we wouldn't know if PFT hadn't brought it too the surface. For instance, I think he deserves a lot of credit for the better public understanding of contracts today, especially puffed-up numbers.

- Florio knows a lot more about the business of football than he does about the game of football. When he tries to make predictions or weigh in on the various merits of players, I quickly scroll away.

- Florio has a massive ego and a yen for drama that sometimes gets in the way of sound judgment.

- Florio has become so influential in league inner circles that he's now at risk of sabotage. I'm certain that some folks are starting to plant disinformation with him at this point, and he has no way of telling the wheat from the chaff. This will do him in if he doesn't get a handle on it.

Will McDonough used to speculate on such things base on "reliable sources" (boy, that's something you never see any more).

He was right a tremendous amount of the time, lending his rumors, speculation or whatever great credibility.

I could flip a coin and be right more often than PFT.

Rarely do they even describe their source (team source etc.).

So, regardless of their sources, speculations, or dartboard, I choose to ignore them. As long as somebody puts PFT at the beginning of the thread, I know to give it the credibility it deserves, which is very little IMO.

A fresh baked apple pie sitting in the garbage is still considered garbage by me.

 

[PatsFan37]

Florio has developed an incredible pipeline and breaks a LOT of stories. I think we take too much for granted in that regard--there's a ton we wouldn't know if PFT hadn't brought it too the surface. For instance, I think he deserves a lot of credit for the better public understanding of contracts today, especially puffed-up numbers.

Agree about contracts, CBA, coaching moves. He's on top of a lot of front office maneuvers. Not sure what percentage of his stories he breaks, I think he mostly brings local stories into a national spotlight, though he certainly breaks a few and he did a yeoman's job (perhaps a bit too enthusiastically) on the Vick story.

Florio knows a lot more about the business of football than he does about the game of football.

Ain't that the truth.

Florio has a massive ego and a yen for drama that sometimes gets in the way of sound judgment.

The strong POV and drama are essential to his appeal. Look at Hashmarks with its milquetoast approach. It's the opposite of Florio and suffers by comparison.

Florio has become so influential in league inner circles that he's now at risk of sabotage. I'm certain that some folks are starting to plant disinformation with him at this point, and he has no way of telling the wheat from the chaff. This will do him in if he doesn't get a handle on it.

Very good point. He can control this completely, however, by exercising media discipline (short of the attorney general, no one disciplines like the media). For example, most of Florio's readers have an inkling that he doesn't like Len Pasquarelli (ya think?). If someone used Florio for sabotage, he would know and he could find a way to punish. He only has to make that clear in a subtle but effective way, assuming he knows how to be subtle.

Comics learn to handle hecklers. Rumor-mills learn to ferret out disinformation. He should know that by now.

One concern, which goes to your point about his ego, is that he's let his position of influence as a go-between make him think he can analyze beyond his legal expertise. His "cousin's" guessing about the Harrison/Samuel coincidence is one example that seemed pretty ridiculous to me. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Okay, that was too long a response.

 

[patchick]

Very good point. He can control this completely, however, by exercising media discipline (short of the attorney general, no one disciplines like the media). For example, most of Florio's readers have an inkling that he doesn't like Len Pasquarelli (ya think?). If someone used Florio for sabotage, he would know and he could find a way to punish. He only has to make that clear in a subtle but effective way, assuming he knows how to be subtle.

Great point. Honestly, I think one of his biggest weaknesses is his tendency to wage petty vendettas. If you get on his s*** list you're in for years of character assassination. He LOVES to label people, and obviously gets a kick out of people picking up his nasty nicknames. It's one thing to be funny and caustic, another to be genuinely mean-spirited. The more he crosses that line, the more he causes lasting harm to reputations and makes enemies. In the long run, that could be a big mistake.

 

[PatsFan37]

Great point. Honestly, I think one of his biggest weaknesses is his tendency to wage petty vendettas. If you get on his s*** list you're in for years of character assassination. He LOVES to label people, and obviously gets a kick out of people picking up his nasty nicknames. It's one thing to be funny and caustic, another to be genuinely mean-spirited. The more he crosses that line, the more he causes lasting harm to reputations and makes enemies. In the long run, that could be a big mistake.

It's a thin line. He's become a go-to web site because he's edgy, but the vendetta thing is at the least annoying to his readers and must be truly infuriating to his targets, especially those bound by the traditions of their own media not to strike back. And you're right, it's a hollow sort of laughter when it's as mean-spirited as he makes it.

He obviously works his butt off to make the site successful, but if he lets his emotions take charge, he could be as quick to fall as he was to rise.

 

[RayClay]

People like gossip sites.

 

[PATRIOT64]

http://www.projo.com/patriots/content/sp_fbn_seymour0906_09-06-07_MH7135S.30b5c20.html

Another recent report suggesting it may be more than just a website rumor

 

[RayClay]

http://www.projo.com/patriots/content/sp_fbn_seymour0906_09-06-07_MH7135S.30b5c20.html

Another recent report suggesting it may be more than just a website rumor

If repeating stuff we've already heard makes it stronger, that's true.

 

[PatsFan37]

http://www.projo.com/patriots/content/sp_fbn_seymour0906_09-06-07_MH7135S.30b5c20.html

Another recent report suggesting it may be more than just a website rumor

She's making a big deal out of Seymour not being elected team captain (as he usually is). It wouldn't make sense to elect a team captain who's on PUP, regardless of whether his recovery is on schedule.

 

[Oswlek]

She's making a big deal out of Seymour not being elected team captain (as he usually is). It wouldn't make sense to elect a team captain who's on PUP, regardless of whether his recovery is on schedule.

I am pretty sure that Rodney is also not a captain right now. Unless the timetable for the suspension has been changed to "indefinite" I don't see how the non-captain thing is even an issue.

 

[Mike the Brit]

This brings up a question. Is a rumor of a possible trade "false" if the trade doesn't happen? By all accounts Green Bay WAS talking trade for Moss, and Favre was pissed that it didn't come through. So a rumor that the Packers were actively in the market for Moss should count as a gold star, no?

Rumors of "interest" and "talks" etc. will never yield a perfect record in terms of actual trades, signings and draft picks. Circumstances change; deals fall through. (Maybe the Patriots would indeed have drafted LB David Harris if they hadn't gotten a trade offer to their liking. How the heck do we know?) So even if Florio's rumors were 100% accurate as rumors we'd be able to point to "rumblings" of "discussions" that didn't pan out as reason to discount his site. I don't discount it myself -- I accept its vast limitations but appreciate its strengths.

Yes, but RayClay's point is excellent.

What was that Damon Runyon/Bob Hope movie where Bob Hope is a tipster at the race-course who tells his marks "only pay me if you win"? Of course, he's tipping all the horses to different people ... [Edit: The Lemon Drop Kid?]

I have no way of telling how authoritative Florio's rumours are because, as you say, a negative outcome doesn't invalidate the rumour. On the other hand, covering all the bases doesn't impress me either.

Here's my personal opinion of PFT:

- Florio has developed an incredible pipeline and breaks a LOT of stories. I think we take too much for granted in that regard--there's a ton we wouldn't know if PFT hadn't brought it too the surface. For instance, I think he deserves a lot of credit for the better public understanding of contracts today, especially puffed-up numbers.

Yes. Whatever its limitations, it's a terrific site and a "must read". Its information on behind-the-scenes manoeuvring (e.g. who is in the frame for what coaching job) has been consistently excellent, although his record with Patriots stories has not been particularly good.

- Florio knows a lot more about the business of football than he does about the game of football. When he tries to make predictions or weigh in on the various merits of players, I quickly scroll away.

- Florio has a massive ego and a yen for drama that sometimes gets in the way of sound judgment.

He's running a great web site so he's entitled to be pleased with himself, but I do think that that is a big problem.

He likes to pontificate (and his moral judgements often seem to me questionable), he likes to show off his legal knowledge (which often seems to me to lead him to be hair-splitting and petty-minded) and he likes to speculate -- especially, to identify conspiratorial back-stories.

That is what annoys me most about the site. Given that we can't authenticate his stories, the fact that he presents his speculations (wouldn't it make sense for X to be the case?) alongside his rumours (someone who knows tells me that X is the case, but I can't tell you who it is) is misleading. As often as not, you can't tell where one ends and the other begins.

- Florio has become so influential in league inner circles that he's now at risk of sabotage. I'm certain that some folks are starting to plant disinformation with him at this point, and he has no way of telling the wheat from the chaff. This will do him in if he doesn't get a handle on it.

ten characters

 

[Rob0729]

Will McDonough used to speculate on such things base on "reliable sources" (boy, that's something you never see any more).

He was right a tremendous amount of the time, lending his rumors, speculation or whatever great credibility.

I could flip a coin and be right more often than PFT.

Rarely do they even describe their source (team source etc.).

So, regardless of their sources, speculations, or dartboard, I choose to ignore them. As long as somebody puts PFT at the beginning of the thread, I know to give it the credibility it deserves, which is very little IMO.

A fresh baked apple pie sitting in the garbage is still considered garbage by me.

I don't know if McDonough is a good comparison. McDonough was as columnist/journalist for a major publication. He was bound to a certain journalistic code. Even when he posted rumors, he had to adhere to a higher standard than Florio does.

Also, McDonough was from a different era. It was before the Internet created this who culture of "journalism" that it is better to be first and be wrong than to be last and be right mentality. McDonough had time to verify the validity of the rumors he received. Very rarely did McDonough float out a rumor unless he knew it was almost a certainty of being true. He was not a rumor mongeror. Florio wants to be the first one to break the story and will post most anything that comes across his desk. He is an unashamed rumor mongeror.

I understand why someone would not like Florio and PFT for that reason, but I don't think he should be held to the same journalistic standards as a Will McDonough. They are from different eras and different media.

 

[RayClay]

I don't know if McDonough is a good comparison. McDonough was as columnist/journalist for a major publication. He was bound to a certain journalistic code. Even when he posted rumors, he had to adhere to a higher standard than Florio does.

Also, McDonough was from a different era. It was before the Internet created this who culture of "journalism" that it is better to be first and be wrong than to be last and be right mentality. McDonough had time to verify the validity of the rumors he received. Very rarely did McDonough float out a rumor unless he knew it was almost a certainty of being true. He was not a rumor mongeror. Florio wants to be the first one to break the story and will post most anything that comes across his desk. He is an unashamed rumor mongeror.

I understand why someone would not like Florio and PFT for that reason, but I don't think he should be held to the same journalistic standards as a Will McDonough. They are from different eras and different media.

I don't disagree with most of that, I just see no value in gossip and gossip existed long before the internet.

This is actual, but scant, information.

"Seymour had his knee cleaned out this offseason and it has not responded as he hoped it would. I don't think Seymour's initial injury is more serious than initially reported, but I think the slow pace of his recovery has flown a bit under the radar. Although players routinely come back from arthroscopic surgeries on their knees, sometimes multiple surgeries can take their toll and I think that is the situation with Seymour".

It's a media frenzy, sometimes with a basis, sometimes based on nothing.

Tomase certainly bit on a few of these rumors and he's a reporter. I think this site likes rumors better than information, because they're more interesting.

If I want educated guesses, I can make them myself.

 

[Pat_Nasty]

The Seymour situation has so far played out as a great model of why "gossip" journalism is a good thing.

Here's what Karen Guregian reported in today's Herald:

FOXBORO - Complications from offseason arthroscopic knee surgery forced Richard Seymour [stats] to go on the reserve/physically unable to perform list, according to a source familiar with the Pro Bowl defensive lineman’s situation.

The unexpected news, which came Saturday, means that Seymour can’t return until the seventh game of the season, on Oct. 21 at Miami.

According to the source, however, the defensive captain might not even be ready at that point, given the status of the knee.

When asked if this was a season-ending problem, as some rumors have suggested, the source characterized that view as a little too “dramatic,” particularly at this stage.

On Monday, Seymour was spotted working out in the weight room wearing a sleeve that covered virtually his entire left leg. He did appear to be moving OK.

We don't know who the source is, but one thing is pretty clear -- the source's intentions were to clear up the rumors swirling about Seymour, and let it be known that the reports of his missing the season were a "a little too dramatic."

Without Florio's publishing the initial rumors, there would be no speculation to clear up, and no reason for the source to come forward.

 

[RayClay]

The Seymour situation has so far played out as a great model of why "gossip" journalism is a good thing.

Here's what Karen Guregian reported in today's Herald:



We don't know who the source is, but one thing is pretty clear -- the source's intentions were to clear up the rumors swirling about Seymour, and let it be known that the reports of his missing the season were a "a little too dramatic."

Without Florio's publishing the initial rumors, there would be no speculation to clear up, and no reason for the source to come forward.

Golly, gee. How about the speculation about why he's on the Pup list in the first place?

So unfounded gossip engenders counter speculation and that's good.

By the way, a reporter with actual sources on the team has something about this in his mailbag this week.

 

[Pat_Nasty]

Golly, gee. How about the speculation about why he's on the Pup list in the first place?

So unfounded gossip engenders counter speculation and that's good.

By the way, a reporter with actual sources on the team has something about this in his mailbag this week.

Man, you're quick to whip out the snideness and sarcasm. Seriously, what's your deal? Are you simply unable to argue effectively without resorting to cheap rhetorical tactics?

Anyway, as for the subject at hand:

Try going back to the part of the quote from the Guregian I specifically bolded for those who aren't quite as quick on the uptake as others. Now read the sentence before it.

See, PFT's reporting of the rumor that Seymour would be out for the season motivated a "source familiar with the Pro Bowl defensive lineman’s situation" to clarify that, while Seymour not being ready by week 6 is a real possibility, the complications being season-ending is a "dramatic" interpretation of the situation.

This is real reporting being done by Guregian, a real reporter. It contains information from a source talking specifically to Seymour's injury. Compare that to what your "reporter with actual sources on the team" had to say in his mailbag:

Seymour had his knee cleaned out this offseason and it has not responded as he hoped it would. I don't think Seymour's initial injury is more serious than initially reported, but I think the slow pace of his recovery has flown a bit under the radar. Although players routinely come back from arthroscopic surgeries on their knees, sometimes multiple surgeries can take their toll and I think that is the situation with Seymour.

Basically, this tells us NOTHING that we didn't already know -- that Seymour had offseason surgery, and his being on the PUP list might have something to do with that. For someone who supposedly has "sources on the team," he for some reason didn't see fit to consult any of them here, because all he has to offer is some vague information on the general nature of players' undergoing knee surgery, but nothing Seymour-specific.

And remember -- this guy with his "actual sources on the team" was about two weeks behind on the story about Bruschi's broken wrist last year, and months behind on Jackons' knee injury. In fact, in general, this reporter's "actual sources on the team" seldom seem to tell him anything about injuries until maybe an hour before they make an official announcement about it.

 

[RayClay]

Man, you're quick to whip out the snideness and sarcasm. Seriously, what's your deal? Are you simply unable to argue effectively without resorting to cheap rhetorical tactics?

Anyway, as for the subject at hand:

Try going back to the part of the quote from the Guregian I specifically bolded for those who aren't quite as quick on the uptake as others. Now read the sentence before it.

See, PFT's reporting of the rumor that Seymour would be out for the season motivated a "source familiar with the Pro Bowl defensive lineman’s situation" to clarify that, while Seymour not being ready by week 6 is a real possibility, the complications being season-ending is a "dramatic" interpretation of the situation.

This is real reporting being done by Guregian, a real reporter. It contains information from a source talking specifically to Seymour's injury. Compare that to what your "reporter with actual sources on the team" had to say in his mailbag:



Basically, this tells us NOTHING that we didn't already know -- that Seymour had offseason surgery, and his being on the PUP list might have something to do with that. For someone who supposedly has "sources on the team," he for some reason didn't see fit to consult any of them here, because all he has to offer is some vague information on the general nature of players' undergoing knee surgery, but nothing Seymour-specific.

And remember -- this guy with his "actual sources on the team" was about two weeks behind on the story about Bruschi's broken wrist last year, and months behind on Jackons' knee injury. In fact, in general, this reporter's "actual sources on the team" seldom seem to tell him anything about injuries until maybe an hour before they make an official announcement about it.

I'm tired of this argument.

The idea that unfounded speculation is good because it cause counter speculation amuses me. sorry.

I realize the first one to guess right is considered to have a scoop around here, so I'm backing out.

Yes, there are actual scoops. But they're like the boy who cried wolf. When there actually was a wolf everyone laughed and ignored him.

http://www.amazon.com/Boy-Who-Cried-Wolf/dp/0689874332

 

[spacecrime]

The Seymour situation has so far played out as a great model of why "gossip" journalism is a good thing.

Here's what Karen Guregian reported in today's Herald:



We don't know who the source is, but one thing is pretty clear -- the source's intentions were to clear up the rumors swirling about Seymour, and let it be known that the reports of his missing the season were a "a little too dramatic."

Without Florio's publishing the initial rumors, there would be no speculation to clear up, and no reason for the source to come forward.

Okay, what have we gained?

Before Florio's speculation, we knew Seymour was on PUP but did not think he would be out for the year.

Now, thanks to Florio, we know that Seymour is on PUP but we do not think he will be out for the year.

Magnificent! Thank you, Mike Florio!