PFT: High-level executive: "IR issue way bigger than taping"

[pao]

Its not cheating. But people like yourself think that breaking a rule = cheating regardless of what occurs. Well, I have news for you. You're wrong. Just because you break a rule doesn't mean you are cheating. And its stupid for you to think that.

Well obviously we disagree. IMO, if someone knowingly breaks a rule like the IR rule or the Steroids use rule, or the Practice Squad rules they are cheating. If that makes me stupid in your eyes then you're welcome to your opinion.

It was an example that was clearly LOST on you.

It was a very poor example as I pointed out.

Unlike you, I tell my kids that just because you break a rule doesn't mean that you are cheating. There is a difference and I tell them so. Its not black and white like you claim.

In this case, the IR case, it is black and white.

How is the organization taking advantage of a player by teaching them and allowing them to LEARN the skill in which they are applying their trade?

Because if you allowed it, teams would abuse it, and put players on IR that weren't hurt. This would tie them to the team that IR'ed them keeping them from signing with a team that might play them. You think the Chargers would have let Wes Welker go if they could've IR'ed him instead of trying to sneak him onto the practice squad? No way, and it would have taken Wes at least another year to get his career going.

Also, you are making a huge assumption that the team FORCED the player to do this.

Some players would do ANYTHING to be on an NFL Roster. Doesn't mean it's good for all players or all players WANT to do it. Some would be forced that wouldn't want it, believe it.

Unlike YOU, I sit down with my kids and talk with them and let them know that there is certain behavior that is acceptable and certain behavior that is not. I also explain that there are rules that are guidelines and rules that are not to be broken.

So, in your opinion, it is ok to break the rules about allowing a player on IR to practice with the team even though it is against the rules of the league? Is that what you teach your children?

BTW, its pretty laughable that you sit here and preach about role models and such when you have some of the worst examples of role models on the Chargers that the sporting scene has ever had the pleasure of seeing.

Now why would the fact that the Chargers have some idiots too or have been caught breaking the rules in the past keep me from giving my opinion? It doesn't change my opinion of what is right or wrong based on the team that does it. It is either right or wrong, the uniform doesn't matter. See this is what I teach my kids.

sdfan

 

[Deus Irae]

Well obviously we disagree. IMO, if someone knowingly breaks a rule like the IR rule or the Steroids use rule, or the Practice Squad rules they are cheating. If that makes me stupid in your eyes then you're welcome to your opinion.

Let me just point out to you that there's a reason that a lot of shenanigans fall under the heading of 'gamesmanship' rather than being called cheating. Ask some former NBA players about the old Boston Garden when Red was around, just for an example.

While I agree with your point that a player practicing while supposedly on IR does have a great chance of giving the team an unfair advantage in the future if the player in question was a young guy learning the ropes, Commissioner Clouseau's response to this seems to indicate that it's a common enough practice to have a procedure in place for it. When it comes to sports, there does come a time when 'everyone else is doing it' is a valid defense. If you don't believe me, watch an NBA game sometime and watch players getting away with flopping, traveling and a whole host of other things that are purportedly violations. I don't know if this is one of those times, I just know that Goodell made it clear that this is a very minor issue.

 

[pao]

How can you agree with me when you claimed that no other team had gotten caught?

When you wrote "It's not a new issue" I thought you were talking about the Patriots and Goodell already handling it. My bad. So you think this has happened in the past to other teams and it has been handled hush, hush, eh? Maybe you're right, who knows? That's fine with me.

Dude, you are seriously confused and need to just stop speaking.

Don't worry, Zeke is sending me a helmet and a ticket for a ride on a short bus. I'll be fine. Thanks, though, for the concern! It's nice to know you care!

sdfan

 

[pao]

Let me just point out to you that there's a reason that a lot of shenanigans fall under the heading of 'gamesmanship' rather than being called cheating. Ask some former NBA players about the old Boston Garden when Red was around, just for an example.

While I agree with your point that a player practicing while supposedly on IR does have a great chance of giving the team an unfair advantage in the future if the player in question was a young guy learning the ropes, Commissioner Clouseau's response to this seems to indicate that it's a common enough practice to have a procedure in place for it. When it comes to sports, there does come a time when 'everyone else is doing it' is a valid defense. If you don't believe me, watch an NBA game sometime and watch players getting away with flopping, traveling and a whole host of other things that are purportedly violations. I don't know if this is one of those times, I just know that Goodell made it clear that this is a very minor issue.

I respect your opinion as much as any on this board or the SD board. I will read your post with much interest later when I have more time. I believe I have a lot I can learn from you.

sdfan

 

[OhExaulted1]

Excellent post.

Deferred parenting is a scapegoat (oh no, the videogames!) and it's refreshing to see someone accept responsibility.

Thanx bradmahn. On to the high and mighty childless hypocrites.

 

[captain stone]

At some point executives and Goodell are going to have to come to terms with the fact that enforcing unenforceable rules is NOT in the best interest of football.

It's in the players and teams collective interests to allow players to practice when they are physically able to. A player doesn't want to sit on the sideline because of an outdated rule that says IR players can't practice even if they are physically able to. That hurts their career more than it hurts the team.

And the fact that the league has no interest or desire in policing every team - and would only know if a player complained of being forced to practice while injured - should tell them that its a stupid and unenforceable rule in the first place.

Bingo, bango, bongo.

The IR rules, as currently constituted, are ******ed and unenforceable, just like the hysterical anti-marijuana laws.

Why in the world can't the league adopt Disabled List rules like MLB and, to a lesser extent, the NHL and NBA? A 3-tiered system of 3 weeks, 8 weeks and season-ending is much more reasonable than what we have now. Now, a player can suffer a knee injury on Opening Day and, although a 10-week rehab can have him ready after Thanksgiving, be forced to sit the entire season. This helps neither the team nor the NFL, because its best players are not all on the field, and on television. A product that is less attractive than what it should be may begin to attract fewer viewers, and fewer sponsors.

If I were HC, I would use IR'ed players who are physically able to practice exactly the way that the NEP are accused of using them. And if someone's moral sensitivity is offended by their stashing of low-round/UDFA rookies on IR? Then expand the effin Practice Squad to an even dozen.

That "high-level exec"? My guesses are NaPolian, Tannenboob or Casserole.

When the league does something - anything - about Real cheating, as practiced by NaPolian, by the Dolts and Titans, and by the career-threatening teachings of Alex Gibbs, then wake me up.

 

[OhExaulted1]

You say "Big E'ffn deal" but what you fail to realise is that the IR rules are there to protect the player too. The organisation is taking advantage of some players if they put them on IR then force them to practice, especially if they're not really hurt.
sdfan

Yeah, sure. I'll bet they had whips and chains forcing them into submission.

 

[The Boston Patriot]

It is still against the rules, like it or not. It doesn't matter how much you prove that others elsewhere are breaking rules it is what it is. Cheating. Putting any other name on it, or comparing it to other forms of cheating doesn't change the facts.

What does that have to do with breaking the rule for players on IR? NOTHING. It is wrong. Stop doing it until they change the rule. Who cares what other companies or guys on Worker's Comp are doing. It has nothing to do with this.

So what you're telling your kid is it's ok to break the rules, in a word to cheat. He is the one that determines what rules to break or not? Interesting. You say "Big E'ffn deal" but what you fail to realise is that the IR rules are there to protect the player too. The organisation is taking advantage of some players if they put them on IR then force them to practice, especially if they're not really hurt.

Everyone in life is a role model. From the single mother down the street to Bill Bellichik. It is our job as parents to teach our children the difference between a good role model and a bad role model. Unless you don't allow your kids to watch TV or sporting events you better believe they are learning something from what they are watching, good and bad.

sdfan

Have you checked the WNBA schedule yet? You might find what you are
looking for there. So far as I can tell neither the NFL, NHL, NBA, or MLB has
the choir boys you want to root for so you might as well switch genders and
go watch the girls.

 

[since67]

You really know nothing about football. its origins, its history, its strategy, the men who created it, how it developed, what it is. You have been told Football is a college math test, and that's what you believe. So when the people who tell you it is a college math test tell you someone "cheated' it offends your delicate sensibilities.

I don't blame you. You just don't know the game.

If you understood that football was created by military men to mimick war; that it flourished in its origins at military institutions; that the greatest coaches in its history were all military vets or coached at the academies; you would realize that the military ethos permeates the game to its foundations.

These men brought a military perspective on physical training, formations, assignments terminology, scouting and intelligence. The one principle rule is: Think Out of the Box.

Every rule must be creatively bent, every loophole exploited. That's what Halas, Brown, Lombardi, Landry all did. And no one got in trouble because it was a boy will be boys barracks culture.

But now you have a media watching the game that has no comprehension of its ethos, and commissioner who grew up with a silver spoon up his @$$. They are judging a military game by a University "honor code" and you are falling for it. And it's pathetic.

Now that's what I call an enlightening post. Very well done!

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

Come on doggie, I said HUNT.

 

[OhExaulted1]

So what you're telling your kid is it's ok to break the rules, in a word to cheat. He is the one that determines what rules to break or not? Interesting. You say "Big E'ffn deal" but what you fail to realise is that the IR rules are there to protect the player too. The organisation is taking advantage of some players if they put them on IR then force them to practice, especially if they're not really hurt.

Everyone in life is a role model. From the single mother down the street to Bill Bellichik. It is our job as parents to teach our children the difference between a good role model and a bad role model. Unless you don't allow your kids to watch TV or sporting events you better believe they are learning something from what they are watching, good and bad.

sdfan

I can't stand it. The biggest role model in your life should be YOURSELF!

Lead, don't follow.

 

[HSanders]

How about...why is it just taken for granted that it is ok for Goodell to try to punish something that A) yes, a guy observed but there is no tangible proof of other than his word, and B) occurred during Tags' regime, not his?

 

[Metaphors]

Once again, people take comments without putting 2 seconds of thought into them and declare conclusions that aren't supported by the evidence.

Goodell's statement about this situation:

Two new pieces of information that we did pick up in the three hours that were of note: One is that they had a tape of – he indicated that there was a tape at one point in time of a player inappropriately practicing. He was a player that was on injured reserve. He practiced, I believe, back in 2001. He identified the player. We're verifying that. So that is something that we have been looking into.

This quote could be referring to a single player at a single practice for 5 minutes. It certainly doesn't give the impression that the Pats did this as a common procedure. In fact, it doesn't make sense that this happened very often. The Pats would have to sneak the player into the practice facility, keep him hidden during the first 15 minutes, keep him and his gear out of the locker room and sneak him out of the practice facility. That is the only way to keep the media from spotting him and exposing the situation. Which "redshirt" player since 2000 is worth that kind of effort?

Now add in Tucker's comments:

I had heard the Patriots did this before I signed with them in 2005 and I saw it firsthand during my time there. I asked veteran receiver Troy Brown about it one time and he responded, "Every team in the league does that." I quickly let him know none of the three teams I played for previously had done so.

Basically, the Patriots would put a player on IR, knowing it meant he couldn't play in a game or practice with the team for the remainder of the season. By skirting the rules and practicing him anyway, it allowed them to develop his skills during the year. A side benefit is that they were also able to give some of the older players less repetitions and, therefore, additional rest.

So much stinks about this article:

• Throwing Troy under the bus. "I asked a veteran player..." would have had the same effect. Give Ross his douchebag badge for that one.
• I'm sure we all agree Tucker is an expert on the operations of the Redskins (2001), Cowboys (2002) and Bills (2003) based on his extensive time with those teams.
• The 2nd paragraph talks in fuzzy terms ("a player", "practicing him", "his skills") but implies that there was a coordinated operation around manipulating the IR rules as a standard practice. He already dropped Troy's name as knowingly and willingly playing along with breaking the rules. Why not provide names of the fleet of players on IR that Pats have practiced? Because reality is much more boring than unsubstantiated rumor (and you avoid getting sued).
• The "side benefit" mentioned is just silly but is necessary because the primary benefit (player development), while still illegal, isn't very sexy. He wants us to believe that the 53 players on the active roster plus the 8 practice squad players aren't enough to give vets adequate rest. I mean 61 players is just barely enough to run 7x7 drills (Tucker must not have been a math major at Princeton). Add Mike Richardson into the mix? Well with 62 players available, now you can rest Bruschi, Vrabel and Rodney. Simple logic.

I'm not naive enough to think that the Pats don't "redshirt" rooks to keep them off the waiver wire...or later in the year don't have them run around a little or attend meetings or whatever. If caught, the Pats or any other team should be fined. Case closed. There is a rule, enforcement procedures and associated penalties. Move along...nothing to see here.

 

[NEPatriot]

all the things that they are talking right now happened in the past and nobody came out and said anything last year. Suddenly, it's a big thing now because it involves Pats.

It's unbelievable.

 

[Boondr]

Florio is going back to his old stand-by for anti-Patriots "official statements, Bill Polian...er.make that "a high level executive".

 

[Boondr]

Once again, people take comments without putting 2 seconds of thought into them and declare conclusions that aren't supported by the evidence.

Goodell's statement about this situation:



This quote could be referring to a single player at a single practice for 5 minutes. It certainly doesn't give the impression that the Pats did this as a common procedure. In fact, it doesn't make sense that this happened very often. The Pats would have to sneak the player into the practice facility, keep him hidden during the first 15 minutes, keep him and his gear out of the locker room and sneak him out of the practice facility. That is the only way to keep the media from spotting him and exposing the situation. Which "redshirt" player since 2000 is worth that kind of effort?

Now add in Tucker's comments:



So much stinks about this article:

• Throwing Troy under the bus. "I asked a veteran player..." would have had the same effect. Give Ross his douchebag badge for that one.
• I'm sure we all agree Tucker is an expert on the operations of the Redskins (2001), Cowboys (2002) and Bills (2003) based on his extensive time with those teams.
• The 2nd paragraph talks in fuzzy terms ("a player", "practicing him", "his skills") but implies that there was a coordinated operation around manipulating the IR rules as a standard practice. He already dropped Troy's name as knowingly and willingly playing along with breaking the rules. Why not provide names of the fleet of players on IR that Pats have practiced? Because reality is much more boring than unsubstantiated rumor (and you avoid getting sued).
• The "side benefit" mentioned is just silly but is necessary because the primary benefit (player development), while still illegal, isn't very sexy. He wants us to believe that the 53 players on the active roster plus the 8 practice squad players aren't enough to give vets adequate rest. I mean 61 players is just barely enough to run 7x7 drills (Tucker must not have been a math major at Princeton). Add Mike Richardson into the mix? Well with 62 players available, now you can rest Bruschi, Vrabel and Rodney. Simple logic.

I'm not naive enough to think that the Pats don't "redshirt" rooks to keep them off the waiver wire...or later in the year don't have them run around a little or attend meetings or whatever. If caught, the Pats or any other team should be fined. Case closed. There is a rule, enforcement procedures and associated penalties. Move along...nothing to see here.

Come on you know you can't bring logic into an anti-Patriots argument!

 

[flasox27]

I think the high level executive might not want to antagonize Kraft given the opting out of the bargaining agreement especially if that high level executive is in a small market team.

 

[Boondr]

I think the high level executive might not want to antagonize Kraft given the opting out of the bargaining agreement especially if that high level executive is in a small market team.

Hence the reason the wuss didn't have the gonads to go on the record with his name.





$100 says its Polian the guy doesn't stop obsessing about the Pats and has to chime in on anything Pats with a negative comment.

 

[pao]

Let me just point out to you that there's a reason that a lot of shenanigans fall under the heading of 'gamesmanship' rather than being called cheating.

A brilliant distinction! Now we just need to define what is "gamesmanship" and what is "cheating". I feel that too many times the posters here, and everywhere, change the definition based on the organisation accused (or convicted). Gamesmanship is trying to influence people or teams while doing something that isn't strictly illegal, something to give your team an advantage by getting into the head of the opposing team/player. In the '06 AFC Divisional Playoff game the Patriots waited to leave the locker room until the Chargers were being announced, the crowd didn't know whether to cheer or boo! A great example of gamesmanship. Rodney Harrison took HGH. A great example of cheating (no matter how noble his reasons for doing it). These are two Patriot examples, I am not trying to say that gamesmanship/cheating is exclusive to the Patriots, just trying to describe my perception of the difference. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Ask some former NBA players about the old Boston Garden when Red was around, just for an example.

Indeed.

While I agree with your point that a player practicing while supposedly on IR does have a great chance of giving the team an unfair advantage in the future if the player in question was a young guy learning the ropes, Commissioner Clouseau's response to this seems to indicate that it's a common enough practice to have a procedure in place for it.

And I am fine with that, however, it is the opinion of some posters here that that this rule isn't a good rule, that it is in the player's best interest to go along with breakin it, that everyone is doing it, or whatever, so the rule can be broken with no consequence if caught or simply ignored. I disagree.

When it comes to sports, there does come a time when 'everyone else is doing it' is a valid defense.

I see your point but can't think of an example that would serve as an illustration that would be palatable to me.

If you don't believe me, watch an NBA game sometime and watch players getting away with flopping, traveling and a whole host of other things that are purportedly violations.

Ah, the crux of the matter, imo. Here is where we get into the "this is breaking the rules too, how can you accept this type of breaking the rules, but not breaking the IR rule, if you are so righteous" argument. And there is the addendum that star players are allowed even MORE lattitude (I always hated that pitchers like Greg Maddox got a wider strike zone than the rules called for...and he is now a Padre!). I would be really interested in hearing your thoughts on this. I guess my opinion would be that if the officials are allowing it then the players can't be blamed for taking advantage of it. But boy let me tell you, if they are going to crack down on it they better crack down on EVERYONE that is doing it (I'm sure we all agree on that!).

sdfan

 

[Doctor DDS]

Is there a statute of limitations as to how far back you can go and penalize a team. Some of the things we are talking about allegedly took place 7 years ago. Can the Bears still get fined or penalized for things Halas did?