Pete Carroll Picking The Groceries

[patfanken]

Grier had a lot more input than anyone else besides Belichick and Pioli because he had put the work in. If you believe BB gave complete control over anything to anyone, I have a bridge to sell you.

Random article from that draft...

Pats Pleased With Adrian's Landing - Hartford Courant

Rehbein was his quarterback coach. He went to Michigan to personally work out Brady. He wrote in his journal that Brady was going to be outstanding (below), called his wife after every round

USATODAY.com - Game too painful for coach's widow


Y! SPORTS

He started at Michigan. He was going to get a look.

Some comments on the comments:

1. Pete Carroll is always going to fail in comparison merely because he was sandwiched between a HOF HC, and a guy who is even better than the HOF HC. No one is going to be able to survive that kind of comparison and look good.

2. Pete Carroll has always been a good HC. He was good here, just not great. People forget he never had a losing season here. And in his worst season, the 8-8 fiasco, he was 2 Adam V short misses from being 10-6. in the playoffs, and likely still HC of the Pats.

3. Carroll was the victim of 3 poor drafts, which left the team dreadfully low on depth. Its been common to take what little success Carroll had away from him by saying he had a lot of talent on those teams, but much of that talent was one deep, and when he was hit with injuries, they had a lot more trouble surviving them.

He was also the victim of rabid media who were going to kill any new HC who wasn't their binky like Bill Parcells. The Borges example was particularly loathsome, but Toxic Ron wasn't alone in his distaste for anyone who wasn't Bill Parcells "Pumped and Jacked" was never going play well here.

I think we are spoiled by the success BB has in somehow surviving crippling injuries. Its perhaps one of his greatest skills and is just another reason he is the GOAT. Most other merely "good" HC's struggle. But not everyone can be Bill Bellichick.

4. Bobby Grier made some really puzzling draft picks during his tenure. He started well with the Terry Glenn pick, and then had very few successes after that. IIRC the Chris Canty CB pick was particularly bad.

Grier set the board for BB's first draft in 2000, but the credit for Tom Brady has to go solely to **** Rahbein. He was the guy who "banged the table" for Brady early and often during that draft season. The Pats only picked him with their comp pick in the 6th round because his draft rating was just too high above the spot they got him, that he was too big a value to pass up, even though they seemed to have 3 reasonable players ahead of him, including Drew, Bishop. and a good vet back up whose name I can't recall at the moment

Think about it. How often do teams keep 4 QB's on their rosters for a full season, like the Pats did in 2000. Can anyone think of another example?

5. Pete Carroll has always been under rated IMHO. His success in Seattle comes as no surprise to me. Every HC in the NFL is a great coach relative to the rest of the coaches in the game. Just to reach the NFL level you have to be a great coach. Then to rise to level of HC requires another level of obstacles to pass. Even the guys who fail, have been PROVEN leaders and men who know their X's and O's

If you want to know how small the margin of error is between success and failure, just think about Adam V making those 2 very makeable FG's. Just think about BB in Cleveland if the owner doesn't announce the move of the franchise in the middle of the season. Just think about Parcells after his 1-15 first season, losing a couple of more close games in his 2nd.

Being a HC in the NFL is a very tenuous position. Lots of time your success or failure isn't within your own control

 

[RayClay]

4. Bobby Grier made some really puzzling draft picks during his tenure. He started well with the Terry Glenn pick, and then had very few successes after that. IIRC the Chris Canty CB pick was particularly bad.

Grier set the board for BB's first draft in 2000, but the credit for Tom Brady has to go solely to **** Rahbein.

If what Grier's brother said was true, Grier had a role in clearing up why Brady was replaced as starter. Even so, he worked for the team, he made phone calls. He wasn't responsible for picking Brady by any stretch of the imagination.

As you say, and it is my recollection, he was kept on because he's started the draft board, as a consultant in a way. BB wasn't a petty person, he used those who could help.

I will disagree that Glenn was a great pick.

1. it was 7th overall. Any pick that high would be talented.

2. He was emotionally troubled. Urinating on a limousine in public while intoxicated and other incidents.

3. A great draft means getting the most out of the whole draft.

This draft is considered one of the best draft classes ever for the position of wide receiver. Keyshawn Johnson, Terry Glenn, Eddie Kennison, Marvin Harrison, Eric Moulds, Bobby Engram, Terrell Owens, Muhsin Muhammad, Amani Toomer, Jermaine Lewis, and Joe Horn

WIKI

I'm guessing Parcells would have traded down. If so, he'd have Marvin Harrison at #19, Eric Moulds at #24 all the way down to Joe Horn in the seventh. Simply not the draft to blow your wad on a WR at #7 IMO.

When you have a top ten pick, getting one talented player is the minimum, not an achievement.

 

[patfanken]

If what Grier's brother said was true, Grier had a role in clearing up why Brady was replaced as starter. Even so, he worked for the team, he made phone calls. He wasn't responsible for picking Brady by any stretch of the imagination.

As you say, and it is my recollection, he was kept on because he's started the draft board, as a consultant in a way. BB wasn't a petty person, he used those who could help.

I will disagree that Glenn was a great pick.

1. it was 7th overall. Any pick that high would be talented.

2. He was emotionally troubled. Urinating on a limousine in public while intoxicated and other incidents.

I'm guessing Parcells would have traded down. If so, he'd have Marvin Harrison at #19, Eric Moulds at #24 all the way down to Joe Horn in the seventh. Simply not the draft to blow your wad on a WR at #7 IMO.

When you have a top ten pick, getting one talented player is the minimum, not an achievement.

I have to disagree with you on Glenn...at least to a certain degree. Glenn's talent was well worth the 7th pick in that draft. His psychological issues were a lot harder to perceive, especially n those days. The issue between Kraft and Parcells came when he wanted to draft a DL at that spot. A guy who was rated markedly lower. I forget his name, but IIRC he was out of the league within 4 years.

I really question your contention that if Parcells had full control he would have traded down and picked up one of the great WRs who went lower. I would suggest that that is revisionist history. Parcells record when he was in charge of "buying the groceries" was only marginally better than Grier.

Perhaps I gave Grier too much credit for drafting Glenn, only because it was an infinitely better pick than the one that Parcells would have made if he had been in charge, and one that directly led to a Superbowl appearance.

 

[Joker]

1997 Patriots Draft.............

Round Overall Player Position College
1 29 Chris Canty Cornerback Kansas State
2 59 Brandon Mitchell Defensive tackle Texas A&M
3[3] 61 Sedrick Shaw Running back Iowa
3 89 Chris Carter Safety Texas
4[3] 97 Damon Denson Offensive guard Michigan
4 125 Ed Ellis Offensive tackle Buffalo
5 159 Vernon Crawford Linebacker Florida State
6 192 Tony Gaiter Wide receiver Miami (FL)
7 230 Scott Rehberg Offensive guard Central Michigan

sadness prevailed that season....

 

[RayClay]

I have to disagree with you on Glenn...at least to a certain degree. Glenn's talent was well worth the 7th pick in that draft. His psychological issues were a lot harder to perceive, especially n those days. The issue between Kraft and Parcells came when he wanted to draft a DL at that spot. A guy who was rated markedly lower. I forget his name, but IIRC he was out of the league within 4 years.

I really question your contention that if Parcells had full control he would have traded down and picked up one of the great WRs who went lower. I would suggest that that is revisionist history. Parcells record when he was in charge of "buying the groceries" was only marginally better than Grier.

Perhaps I gave Grier too much credit for drafting Glenn, only because it was an infinitely better pick than the one that Parcells would have made if he had been in charge, and one that directly led to a Superbowl appearance.

I would have settled for Marvin Harrison or Eric Moulds myself, plus the bounty we got for dropping from 7 to 19 or 24. I'm amazed at all the people who know for sure who Parcels would have picked. When did he start revealing such things before the draft?


I'm pretty sure Glenn was known as troubled at Ohio state, but he's screwed up so much since, it's hard to search for. I hadn't realized he drove his car into a tree 6 days before they gave him a 12 million dollar contract.

SPORTS PEOPLE - FOOTBALL - Patriots Sign Top Pick - NYTimes.com

 

[realtime]

I would have settled for Marvin Harrison or Eric Moulds myself, plus the bounty we got for dropping from 7 to 19 or 24. I'm amazed at all the people who know for sure who Parcels would have picked. When did he start revealing such things before the draft?

[/url]

Will McDonough was all over this story at the time, which turned out to be more about the end of Kraft and Parcells relationship than the draft. McDonough did a fantastic job on the story.

Among the nuggets he pulled was confirmation from Parcells that (but for the intervention of Kraft/Grier) the Pats were going to pick either Duane Clemons or Tony Brackens at #7 (or Cedric Jones -- but he was gone by the time the Pats picked). He said they could fill their receiver need in Round 2. There was never any talk about trading down, "bounties" or Marvin Harrison.

Brackens and, say, Muhsin Muhammad (if they had drafted him instead of one of the mediocre WR's like Bobby Engram who also went in Round 2) would have been a good haul. But I thought the Patriots came out perfectly well with Terry Glenn and Lawyer Milloy in the first two rounds. Glenn was a problem child, but he was one of the biggest reasons the Pats won the AFC in 1996.

 

[RayClay]

Will McDonough was all over this story at the time, which turned out to be more about the end of Kraft and Parcells relationship than the draft. McDonough did a fantastic job on the story.

Among the nuggets he pulled was confirmation from Parcells that (but for the intervention of Kraft/Grier) the Pats were going to pick either Duane Clemons or Tony Brackens at #7 (or Cedric Jones -- but he was gone by the time the Pats picked). He said they could fill their receiver need in Round 2. There was never any talk about trading down, "bounties" or Marvin Harrison.

Brackens and, say, Muhsin Muhammad (if they had drafted him instead of one of the mediocre WR's like Bobby Engram who also went in Round 2) would have been a good haul. But I thought the Patriots came out perfectly well with Terry Glenn and Lawyer Milloy in the first two rounds. Glenn was a problem child, but he was one of the biggest reasons the Pats won the AFC in 1996.

Will had the best sources, but I'll still say no one knows who someone will draft until the draft. Of course that doesn't make for a good story. You need names and McDonough came up with them. They wouldn't trade for a good offer so the pats could get a low 1st and a good defensive lineman too? The fact that the player everybody knows Parcells would have picked is at least four different people shows how locked down that was.

Glenn did have a good season after Parcells ran roughshod all over him and became the stern daddy he never had. I'm with Parcells on this one. Just because Glenn didn't drive into another tree or start walking around hotels naked doesn't mean Parcells couldn't have gotten a twofer, a top receiver and another big defensive player.

For what it's worth, google trade down with the two names and you get three Patriots books saying that's what Parcells wanted to do. I don't know if he would have, but he certainly had lots of options taken away from him. (Felger's book, management secrets and others).

https://www.google.com/webhp?complete=0&hl=en#complete=0&hl=en&q=parcells+"trade+down"+terry+glenn

They also had 13 picks in 7 rounds that year.

 

[captain stone]

And I hope, if they meet up, that Carrol kicks Ron Borges ass, he owes him one. I don't know if anyone remembers that, but Borges was totally disrespectful in a press conference putting Pete in the position of taking it or stepping into the press area to kick his ass which he wouldn't do because of his respect for the organization.

Totally disgusting, even for Borges.

True, though Bogus at least had pegged the drafting of Chris Canty (Booby Grier's
very first pick) as a "slow dwarf" right from the start.

Booby could've easily had Sam Madison & Jason Taylor as his first picks in his first draft.
Idiot.

Edit: I'm using 1997 as Booby's first draft because by then there was no question about
who was buying the groceries, as opposed to '96 (Parcells/Charlie Armey/Grier/Kraft).

 

[patsfan-1982]

he never would have done with BB has done because he never would have had Brady but Ben Coates got old fast. Curtis Martin was gone after one year and he had why to many injuries to big name guys like Bledsoe, willy mac. ted Johnson and Terry Glenn, also in 3 years of Drafts all they had to show for it was a 3rd down back ( Kevin Faulk ) and a G ( Damien Wood ) after all that just the fact that he never had a losing season in does 3 years was pretty good

 

[Claremonster]

Pretty sure Petey isn't buying the groceries. Schneider is. Petey has a lot of say though since he experienced many good players in college days.

Also if Petey wouldn't have ran the Pats into the ground, Kraft possibly would haven't hired BB. Something to ponder.

 

[Kontradiction]

Seattle's drafts have been nothing short of outstanding since he's gotten there. That said, his true test as a head coach and a personnel evaluator will come when he has to make some harsh decisions starting this offseason and next offseason when Wilson can begin negotiating a new contract.

 

[Ring 6]

Some comments on the comments:

1. Pete Carroll is always going to fail in comparison merely because he was sandwiched between a HOF HC, and a guy who is even better than the HOF HC. No one is going to be able to survive that kind of comparison and look good.

2. Pete Carroll has always been a good HC. He was good here, just not great. People forget he never had a losing season here. And in his worst season, the 8-8 fiasco, he was 2 Adam V short misses from being 10-6. in the playoffs, and likely still HC of the Pats.

3. Carroll was the victim of 3 poor drafts, which left the team dreadfully low on depth. Its been common to take what little success Carroll had away from him by saying he had a lot of talent on those teams, but much of that talent was one deep, and when he was hit with injuries, they had a lot more trouble surviving them.

He was also the victim of rabid media who were going to kill any new HC who wasn't their binky like Bill Parcells. The Borges example was particularly loathsome, but Toxic Ron wasn't alone in his distaste for anyone who wasn't Bill Parcells "Pumped and Jacked" was never going play well here.

I think we are spoiled by the success BB has in somehow surviving crippling injuries. Its perhaps one of his greatest skills and is just another reason he is the GOAT. Most other merely "good" HC's struggle. But not everyone can be Bill Bellichick.

4. Bobby Grier made some really puzzling draft picks during his tenure. He started well with the Terry Glenn pick, and then had very few successes after that. IIRC the Chris Canty CB pick was particularly bad.

Grier set the board for BB's first draft in 2000, but the credit for Tom Brady has to go solely to **** Rahbein. He was the guy who "banged the table" for Brady early and often during that draft season. The Pats only picked him with their comp pick in the 6th round because his draft rating was just too high above the spot they got him, that he was too big a value to pass up, even though they seemed to have 3 reasonable players ahead of him, including Drew, Bishop. and a good vet back up whose name I can't recall at the moment

Think about it. How often do teams keep 4 QB's on their rosters for a full season, like the Pats did in 2000. Can anyone think of another example?

5. Pete Carroll has always been under rated IMHO. His success in Seattle comes as no surprise to me. Every HC in the NFL is a great coach relative to the rest of the coaches in the game. Just to reach the NFL level you have to be a great coach. Then to rise to level of HC requires another level of obstacles to pass. Even the guys who fail, have been PROVEN leaders and men who know their X's and O's

If you want to know how small the margin of error is between success and failure, just think about Adam V making those 2 very makeable FG's. Just think about BB in Cleveland if the owner doesn't announce the move of the franchise in the middle of the season. Just think about Parcells after his 1-15 first season, losing a couple of more close games in his 2nd.

Being a HC in the NFL is a very tenuous position. Lots of time your success or failure isn't within your own control

A few things.
Carrolls last team here was a nightmare, starting 6-2 and then being close to the worst team in the NFL in the 2nd half. They went through a 1-6 stretch where they scored a combined 88 points before finally winning a meaningless last game.
The steady decline in w/l was matched by a steady decline in the talent level, play and overall quality of the team.

I think **** Rehbein 'banging on the table' is quite an exaggeration.
Rehbien was sent to work out 2 QBs, Brady was one and I think Tim Rattay was the other. The organization was split on them. Rehbein said he preferred Brady, and BB used that evaluation to make the pick.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Carroll deserves a lot of credit for drafting Wilson and Sherman and giving them a chance to start right away. But the part that gets under-sold pretty consistently, IMO, is the advantage of having a franchise QB on a rookie contract. Getting Wilson's level of play at QB for peanuts against the cap basically gives you an extra $15-20M in cap space to work with, compared against teams that pay their elite QBs elite money. In Seattle's case, that money has been mostly invested into the pass rush, which pays huge dividends for them. Indy has a similar situation going, but unfortunately for them they've spent the money pretty poorly, so they're not seeing the same boost that Seattle is. Miami and Washington, meanwhile, aren't getting the same level of play out of their QBs, and to the extent that they're still bargains that money is largely wasted on stupid spending in Miami and salary cap penalty holdovers in Washingotn.

It'll be really interesting to see what happens in Seattle once Wilson, Thomas, and Sherman's rookie contracts all run out, not to mention guys like Bobby Wagner, Golden Tate, etc. Given all that they traded for Percy Harvin, replenishing that talent in the draft won't be easy, although if anyone can do it Carroll can. The kinda scary thing there, for the rest of the league, is that they can get a lot of that money by cutting Okung, Harvin, and Rice, and that trio's contributions have been minimal this year.

 

[unoriginal]

Perhaps Carroll's college methodology works well in Seattle due to that stadium, which effectively amplifies crowd noise to college-bowl levels.

 

[resdubwhite]

dude hasn't won anything yet. and even when he does.

Screw him. Cannot abide the man.

 

[jmt57]

Seattle's drafts have been nothing short of outstanding since he's gotten there. That said, his true test as a head coach and a personnel evaluator will come when he has to make some harsh decisions starting this offseason and next offseason when Wilson can begin negotiating a new contract.

I can't help but wonder how much is Carroll and how much is the others around him? No disrespect to Carroll, who I assume has final say, but sometimes the best decision an executive can make is finding good management, empowering them and listening to them. Perhaps GM John Scneider, Sr Personnel Executive Scot McCloughan and Director of College Scouting Scott Fitterer might deserve much of the credit as well.

People like Paul Allen become successful executives due to finding quality top and mid level management in their enterprises as much as any day-to-day decision making on their part. For right or wrong, in the NFL though the head coach (and quarterback) get all of the credit (and all of the blame).

 

[SalemPats]

Pete Carrol is dead to me after his stint with the Patriots