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Personnel Men on ARE and Givens

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Miguel, Mar 11, 2006.

  1. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    "While Antwaan Randle El is the most versatile receiver in free agency, many personnel men believe New England's David Givens is the best pass-catcher available. He's only 25, and the former seventh-round pick is seen as a proven No. 2 receiver who could emerge as a No. 1 threat in the right system. In the case of Randle El, while his value includes his role as a punt returner and gadget-play quarterback, there's divided opinion on whether he's even a solid No. 2 receiver."
     
  2. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Interesting quotes...I do agree Givens is a standout player and will make big bucks in FA and in the right system do great... I too am not as high on ARE..just doesn't seem as steady or as solid a receiver. I think he's not a posession receiver as Givens is....maybe more the gadget-type-trick play QB and big play WR. Do you see any way possible that the Pats could keep both?? I don't..Where is this from..just curious??
     
  3. sarge

    sarge Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Totally agree!
     
  4. italian pat patriot

    italian pat patriot In the Starting Line-Up

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    #12 Jersey

    it is difficult to do not agree on it.
    Givens could become a n.1 threat also for me.
    Randel El IMO could be a n.3 WR.
     
  5. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

  6. smg93

    smg93 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Absolutely. Randle El is like Bethel in that much of his production will come not just from WR but in special teams as a kick returner. I don't think he's anywhere near as tough going across the middle. Where Randle El avoids DB's, I think Givens doesn't mind bringing the hurt to a DB or two.
     
  7. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Thank you Miguel...great find!! Givens is a solid number 2..and a good change of pace with a speedy and dangerous one..works well...which is why he will be missed here. Moe of a posession receiver..he can go over the middle...so much more so than ARE..I think they are different in styles as well..so harder to compare. .ARE may be a bit more spectacular when he makes a play..but the sure go to receiver is more Givens. Givens is better over the middle by far..but the intangible-gardget play artist has to be ARE.
    More like BJ?? In some ways..but a far better receiver..and more versatile.
    Givens also, being younger has a BIG upside.
     
  8. fgssand

    fgssand PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #17 Jersey

    Suddenly we are turing David Givens into the next Derrick Mason right before our very eyes. He is a decent #2, notihng more, nothing less. Tough, great blocker - but somewhat slow and unable to run all routes.
    Don't get me worng, I wish we could keep him, but not for the kings ransome he is going to receieve.
     
  9. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I want Givens back and I would overpay to do it - if only Branch weren't a UFA in 12 months. Then we'd have to overpay him too.
     
  10. goldenaleus

    goldenaleus Practice Squad Player

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    #12 Jersey

    Assuming that Givens is still going to move on with the new CBA. Would Antonio Bryant(69 rec, 1009 yds, 4 td)be worth signing?

    Bryant is the prototypical receiver, with good size, and very good speed. He runs very efficient routes, and gets off the line exceptionally quick. Though his speed gets him into his routes early, he does not have break away speed in the deep open field, although his strength and body control allow him to position himself for the deep ball very well. He has the desire and competitive spirit you want in a top receiver, and will fight any corner on every pass. He has been a solid citizen in Cleveland.

    He seems to be flying under the radar and could the dependable #2 receiver we may need.
     
  11. pats60

    pats60 On the Game Day Roster

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    #12 Jersey

    I agree with you about Givens
    He`s overated he will become another Perrless Price
     
  12. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Which Derrick Mason are you talking about, the 26 year old Mason or the 31 year old Mason??
    Let's compare apples to apples.
    At the start of the 2006 season David Givens will be 26 years old.
    At the start of the 2000 season Derrick Mason was 26 years old.

    Career stats at the same age
    Mason - 45 games, 2 starts, 47 receptions, 508 yards, 3 TDs.
    Givens - 53 games, 27 starts, 158 receptions, 2214 yards, 12 TDs

    At the age of 26 in 2000 Mason played in 16 games, started 10 of them, caught 63 balls for 895 yards and 5 TDs. AFTER the 2000 season Mason signed a 5-year deal with the Titans worth $23 million. I am sure that there were Titans fans saying the same things (limited ability, decent#2, average #2) about Mason then as there are Patriots fans now saying those things about Givens. At the age of 27 in 2001 Mason played in 15 games, started 15 of them, caught 73 balls for 1,128 yards and 9 TDs. At the age of 28 in 2002 Mason played in 14 games, started 14 of them, caughts 79 balls for 1,012 yards and 5 TDs. I see no reason why Givens could not improve the same way Mason did. Derrick Mason is by no means a speedy guy.
     
  13. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    It is not just Patriots fan that think highly of Givens. It is also NFL personnel people.
     
  14. BelichickFan

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  15. MoLewisrocks

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    Well maybe this is a case where if David proves he can continue to develop his own game and remain healthy all the while playing with an injury prone or second tier or backup QB on a struggling team mired in cap hell or some other difficulties BB will consider bringing him back here at at age 31. :D

    NFL personnel think highly of David in an admittedly weak FA WR field. Then again the road to hell is paved with guys NFL personnel guys thought highly of who never lived up to that potential. And of course on the other end of the spectrum there are the guys they wouldn't really give a plug nickel for who help their teams win multiple superbowls, some of whom will end up in the HOF. ;)

    I trust BB's judgement on whether or not to retain Givens and at what price. At the time the Titans chose to retain Mason he must have been reasonably fast though since he was also returning kickoffs. If Givens had the versatility to be doing that here as well at a young age, he'd likely have been retained.
     
  16. dhamz

    dhamz In the Starting Line-Up

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    Mason at the same age as Givens is just a bad comparison. You are comparing an apple with an orange here.

    Those Mason numbers look as if the Titans really overpaid at the time. There is a big part missing though.

    Not only did he lead the team in recieving yards and TDs in 2000, he was also the best return man in the conference. He was coming off a Pro Bowl return year when he averaged 13 yards per PR and 27 yards per KR.

    I highly doubt that Titans fans were knocking a WR who led the team in yards, TDs, and was a great return man as a guy with limited ability.

    Back to the original point - Givens is a good #2 and the best guy by far in a FA market that is lacking in the young good WR area. I'd love to keep him but can't see paying him what he is worth to others. Randle El is a slot WR/PR. He's going to be a terrible value for someone who pays him any significant $ and asks him to be a starting WR.
     
  17. fgssand

    fgssand PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #17 Jersey


    You have restated my point more clearly.....I chose Mason becuase he was closest in my mind to Givens in terms of speed and style (not age), it appears Mason is/was faster than Givens however (at least when he was 26 he was faster).

    It all comes down to value for the money - it will be better to pay to less to keep say Andre Davis as opposed to significantly overpaying to sign Givens.
     

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