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Perception is everything

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Snarf, Feb 23, 2010.

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  1. Snarf

    Snarf Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I see a lot of posts around here knocking Asante, McGinest, Moss, Seymour, Milloy, Law, etc for comments they make about not getting paid, or the Pats being cheap, or the Pats disrespecting vets, etc.

    The problem is, it doesn't matter if what they say is true. All that matters is what the perception is. When we hear that players "hate" their coach, it doesn't matter if it's true or not. If you're a vet going to join the Pats and that is what ESPN and Asante are telling you, that is going to be a real consideration.

    One of the greatest advantages the Pats had over every other team in the league for the first half of this decade was that it attracted veterans, cheaply, and for the longest time managed to keep a lot of veterans at arguably low salaries. Players were willing to give a little salary-wise to be on the team. That meant we got players for bargains, and players were happy as long as they felt important and felt like winners.

    The "winners" part has slipped in recent years, which has probably been a major component of a lot of veteran whining. When you're not pulling in trophies, it's easier for these guys to look for greener pastures (both money-wise and talent wise).

    The bigger problem though IMO is that BB has vastly underestimated the damage to the Pats that some of his actions have made around the league. Psychological damage. While being tough with players and conducting business is all part of the game, cutting players at strange times (Milloy, Seymour) reeks of disrespect. So does franchise tagging players who you want to see lead the team. So does making a public example of Moss, AD, etc when they were late. Justified? Probably. Disrespectful? Yes. Something may make good business sense, but you lose a little bit of that veteran respect each time it occurs. Just because you CAN do it doesn't mean you SHOULD do it.

    The whines and complaints we increasingly hear out of former and existing Pats players regarding salaries and "it's just a business" and the way the press is spinning it as being a major problem is MAKING it a major problem. It won't be long before we start losing out more and more on FA pickups because vets simply don't want to come here.

    There's nothing wrong with running a business, but every good leader requires tact and diplomacy. I think this is BB's greatest weakness, and the one thing that is holding him back from being something even greater than what we have seen. A little tact, please.
     
  2. tuckeverlasting

    tuckeverlasting 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    disagree. reality is everything. perception is just that, perception. i've always diliked the saying "perception is reality". sorry, no, reality is reality and perception is perception.
     
  3. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Name 5 such players. I don't know where this idea comes from. Who over the last decade has chosen to be signficantly underpaid to play here?

    Talk about Perception, well guys like Seymour and Samuel were spoiled early on. The veterans we attract most are the ones that are used to the Lions and Raiders of the NFL.

    Disrespectful? It's business, you need to stop focusing on only the Patriots. No team overpays it's veterans just to "respect" them. LdT just got dropped, is that "disrespect"? Do you realize what FREE agency is and the point of it? The point is not so that the team who originally signed you will match what anyone else would give you. It's to give the player an opportunity to explore the market and get what he is worth according to the existing market. The franchise tag pays an average salary of the TOP FIVE at that position, while protecting the franchise from losing a FRANCHISE PLAYER for nothing. How the hell is that disrespectful?

    This is pure and utter bullspit... sorry. We have never attracted the bulk of the FA market, I have no idea where this delusion comes from. All prized Free Agents we have signed, signed because we offered them top market deals. None of them refused a large chunk of money from another team just to come here. NOTHING is going to change.

    Oh so he's being held back from being better than the best? Because he's already the best and you expect him to be more than that, even though no one can catch up to him, he should be twice what he is!
     
  4. Patstopia

    Patstopia Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    This happens with every team. There is always a whiner out there. As an example look at Coughlin, he was hated by every team he coached. The Giants almost had a mutiny before they won the SB. Now they are currently quiet. Do you think free agents avoid the Giants?
     
  5. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What you are missing is the perception that most players and fan bases have that other teams do exactly the same thing and often worse. Incompetent and insecure HC's cut players for spite and throw them under the nearest bus to deflect criticism away from the FO and tag and trade and cut players, often the same guys they've been fawning over in the press incessantly. One thing the majority of players who leave here will tell you is Bill is honest, you always know where you stand with him (whether AD wants to admit that or not), he won't fluff your skirt but he also won't toss you to the wolves to make his own life easier. And he's the best in the business at coaching and strategizing and preparing his players to put his them in a position to win. He did it in Indy, and they simply failed to execute (with a little help from the refs). He did in in SB 42 but his defense failed to execute multiple plays in the last couple of minutes despite being put in position to make every missed play... He's allowed more aging veterans who have lost a step athletically and value to anyone else to continue their careers because he maximized the value of their experience and football savvy. Guys know this. He was the ONLY HC willing to take a shot on a certain WR 3 years ago and put that player in a position to salvage his legacy. He had the balls to replace a $100M face of the franchise with a 6th rounder and stick with him because he was a better QB regardless of where he came from.

    Players worth having here aren't swayed by perception spun my malcontents and mediots. At the end of the day all any of these guys want is a chance to be paid and to win. How they balance those goals determines whether they choose to come here or go to DC, as well as whether we really even want them.
     
  6. robertweathers

    robertweathers Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Thats crap. What matters is the truth and decisions based on circumstances. A free agent or potential draft pick talking to Tom Brady,Bob Kraft, Bill Belichick, Matt Light or Mayo is also a real consideration and cannot be discounted. Calling ex-employees and hearing them grind an axe is due diligence but is one perspective as opposed to the whole truth. If a potential FA doesn't want to talk to the players with the current team and only the ones gone, then he really didn't want to come to the Pats in the first place.

    Name one veteran or marque FA who came here on the cheap that did not already have a pre-existing circumstance (injury, bad team situation, etc.). Further, once that player "rehabilitated" their situation, did a majority of them get "paid"? The list is many...Moss, Dillon, Peiffer, Harrison, Vrable come to mind...

    Every company that I have been at that has enjoyed great success had working line employees who complained about pay and not having a bigger slice of the pie. You don't hear ex players from Seattle or the Rams complaining do you about not getting paid? Its human nature.

    Disrespect? Spare me. Is this Bianca? Let me remind you that your husband can negotiate with any team of his choosing.

    Whatever. 2007 Sb, 2008 11-5 no Brady , 10-6 last year, tough playoff round. Solid ownership. Strong financially. Stable FO. Great fan base. C'mon.

    See the Pats latest press release regarding the tag on VW. Couldn't get any better at diplomacy. Throw in "US, "Iran" and "nuclear talks" and it's something the UN Defense Council would use as a boilerplate for any formal memos.

    Has the team made some mistakes? Sure. Do they treat players like dirt. Absolutely not.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  7. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Here is some perception for you.

    All things being equal the pats are still one of the top 5 destinations of choice for a FA.

    Maybe 5 years ago we were number one (and we still may be) but its not like we are the team players would least like to go to.

    Now FA do know that things are not equal and some teams spend more than others and so the guys looking for absolutely top dollar might not look here but the guys who are looking to be paid well and to win see us as on top of that list with a handful of other teams.
     
  8. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    So if we pay exorbitant salaries we'll be able to sign valuable vets cheaply?

    Oh, sorry. Coddling disgruntled players will allow us to attract more disgruntled expensive players. Almost missed that part.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  9. Clonamery

    Clonamery PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    See, now that's diplomacy.
     
  10. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Your point about perception has a lot of truth to it. The specifics of your argument notwithstanding, the key for perception is how the players in the league view the team. The Bungles were proof of that for years.
     
  11. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    so I'm confused. You're saying that, when Ass-hat Jackson said that the Pats hate their coach, the fact that they didn't was irrelevant?

    I'l agree that, at this point, the "Pats don't pay" perception is out there, true or not. I also don't really see why it matters, necessarily, since it's well-chronicled that the Pats do let their veterans walk. Case in point: how many guys from the 2004 SB team are still playing for us?

    And who cares? Do you honestly think that the next FA that they want is going to look at the offer sheet and say "You know, I was going to sign this, but because Asante Samuel and Willie McGinest suggested that you might not re-up me at market value in four years, I think I'd rather not"?
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  12. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And coming from Ray too. :D
     
  13. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    ummm....you want to quantify that? or is it just the homer in you talking
     
  14. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    I largely agree with the OP

    as for someone's 'not pereption, but 100% reality', what is the current 'reality'?

    foxborough is quickly becoming just another place.........

    the pats currently have one good LB......

    the pats have no coordinators.....

    etc
     
  15. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #24 Jersey

    I don't think this is the homer in me.

    If the guy is strictly looking for money he doesn't apply, If he looking for a specific role he doesn't apply, if he want to stay near home he doesn't apply.

    But if the guy was set to get equal money and didn't have concerns about the above I can only think of a handful of teams that would likely win out vs us. Maybe the Colts, Saints, past that I am not sure anyone would be a better destination. Sure you can say Steelers, Eagles, Cowboys, Vikings, and maybe a few others but the key to New England is not just winning but getting a chance to play with one of the Greatest QBs of all time or one of the greatest defensive minds of all time.

    Bottom line is that if you are looking to go to a SB there are few teams out there that if you sign with them you expect you will be going to a SB and the Patriots are still one of those teams and I don't think there are more than 5 teams that can boast that. Really I can only think of three teams that you can ligitamately say are SB favorites Pats, Colts, and Saints. I guess I would include the Steelers too although I think they are clearly a tiny bit below us.

    Lets put it this way. If I am Julius Peppers I think I am going to be in a SB if I sign with the Pats. I would think this same way about the Colts (who don't have a role for me) and the Saints not sure if I can have this same thought about any other team. I would think I have a really good chance if I signed with the Steelers, Eagles, Cowboys, or Vikings but not to the same degree of confidence.

    I guess the simplest way for me to quantify this is as long as we have Tom and BB we will be SB contenders and players will want to play here more than most teams in the league.


    If you think I am so off and need to take off the homer glasses please tell me 5 teams that you would rather go to if you were say Julius Peppers or Anquan Boldin? The key here is that money can't be the factor.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  16. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    peppers can say the same about many teams......the pats have fallen back to the rest of the pack as a place players want to come to win.

    who was the last guy who came here for less $$ to win a ring?

    and you are simply ridiculous to think that money can't be a factor.....it is always a factor.

    there are lots of places peppers or boldin can go.......boldin can go to the jets for starters......boldin can go to the ravens, broncos, giants, cowboys, packers.......lots of good teams could help themselves the same way as the pats

    peppers can go to the broncos, chargers, packers, giants, eagles

    at this point, it is just as valid to say players would not want to come here because of the cold........the pats now offer nothing that a players can't get on alot of teams........if the packers give me a $41 million deal and the pats give me a $40 million deal, why would I not go to the packers?
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  17. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Who was the first?
     
  18. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think the 'Pats are cheap' opinion is probably more of a perception by fans than by players. Any time a veteran free agent has not been re-signed this decade that chorus has been repeated on internet message boards from coast to coast - either by overreacting doom and gloom Pats fans, or by opposing fans wishing and hoping for a Pats downfall.

    The problem with that argument is that it ignores this thing called a salary cap which has been in place, and that in most years the Pats spend right to, or very close to the cap. Yes, I realize there are real numbers and cap numbers, but you can't maneuver salaries and bonuses forever without it catching up to you at some point. That's just not going to happen because Kraft and Belichick's business plan is to be competitive year after year, and not just put all their chips into winning one season knowing they will be upside down against the cap in a year or two.

    In addition Belichick's philosophy over the years has been to spread the wealth throughout the roster more than most teams. Not re-signing a player like Samuel creates a lot of angst and discussion, while outbidding other teams for a Leigh Bodden or Fred Taylor doesn't create much of a stir. Compare a team like the Colts to the Pats over the decade and you'll find they spend a little more on their highest paid players, but less in the middle and bottom thirds of the roster. It's not that one way is right or the other is wrong, but to say the Pats are cheap and the Colts are not is incorrect because the two teams are spending about the same amount of money.

    If NFL players supposedly believe the Pats are cheap and are staying away, then how do you explain the number of veteran free agents that came here last year? If I recall correctly, the Pats signed more vet free agents last offseason than any other NFL team - and that number did not include Jason Taylor (who the Pats offered more money than the Dolphins did) and was in an offseason in which they started with zero cap space.
     
  19. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Asante got his big payday BECAUSE of the Patriots... not in spite of them.

    And if you're a vet that's not smart enough to understand that, regardless of what Asante might be saying, you're probably a vet that the Patriots don't want anyway.

    Regarding Moss' comments, I don't take issue with him saying what he did about not expecting to be back next season... but even Moss would have to admit that he didn't stand a chance of signing a 3 year $27 million contract if he had stayed with the Raiders for 2007... and it would be even less likely that he'd get a decent payday in his next contract if he didn't have Tom Brady throwing to him.

    Those things might escape the attention of many players, but it doesn't escape the attention of their agents, who understand the benefit of turning a short term "show me" contract into a big payday later.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  20. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    ahhh....rodney harrison?
     
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