Perceived Needs vs Actual Needs....A Belichick Lesson on Reality

[hwc]

There are plenty of Knowlagable Respected (at least they were until last night) posters here that think that A real need for this team is the Defensive Front Seven, especially a pass rusher.

So, the obvious conclusion, if you ask me, is that the way the draft board fell, Belichick never felt that he had a front seven player he liked and good value when the Pats had picked. Just because Mel Kipper likes a pass rusher doesn't mean that pass rusher will grade out highly in the Pats' evaluation. Upgrading from mediocre JAG to mediocre JAG just to say you drafted somebody at that position doesn't make sense.

Plus, let's not forget that the Pats have been drafting a lot of LBs in recent drafts. It could well be that some of these guys might be turned lose to rush the passer if the Pats can ever field a secondary that can cover for a few seconds.

 

[Observer]

Sums it up quite nicely. Our defense didn't require that we get a pass rusher, the DB's are our defense in passing situations. Our first priority has to be protecting Brady and that seems to have been addressed.

I would think that our first priority has to be winning the game.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Stop drinking the Pats Kool Aid.

Belichick, before the draft this year, said this was one of the best DL classes in a while. Then he goes the whole draft without drafting one. Belichick always says it is important to add value/talent to the roster and not always address specific needs.

Well if the DL class was so good, then why didn't you add talent at that spot?

There were a ton of defensive lineman in this draft that were seen as impact players. Whether it was a 5-tech or an OLB, there were PLENTY of players available.

I can understand not wanting to trade into the top 5 for a guy like Von Miller or Aldon Smith. But when Robert Quinn slides out of the top 10, why not trade up a few spots from 17 and grab him? Why not take a shot on Greg Romeus late in the draft, a guy many people around here liked last year. Why not take Cameron Jordan at 17? Why not take a pass rusher instead of a second RB in the middle rounds?

You are DELUSIONAL if you think the pass rush is not a major need. It has been for quite a while now. There's a reason this team was dead last in 3rd down defense.

There is still a hole at RDE, which STILL has not been addressed since Seymour was traded in 2009.

There is still a hole at OLB, a position that has not been adequate since 2007 when they had Adalius, Colvin before injury, and Vrabel.

If you think an OLB corps of Cunningham, Banta-Cain, Ninkovich, and Eric Moore will get the job done in the modern NFL, you are delusional.

 

[TheSolderKing]

"what's the difference between need versus want what is the difference between need versus want. Dude have you seen the house I am going to live in?"


I leave the H8RS with this link

http://www.spearhead-entertainment.com/storage/charliesheen.swf

 

[PYPER]

I think you're wrong about not needing an OLB.

I think we would all love to find the next Andre Tippet or Willie Mac but that doesn't mean its an easy task. I just get tired of people acting like its easy to fill out the roster with players destined to set the league on fire. People like to review the drafts of particular teams but how often do they review the entire draft class. The majority of players drafted each year or either role players or complete busts. There are years where this applies to the entire first round as well. Just b/c a player is hyped pre-draft doesn't make him a quality player. BB's job is to ignore the hype and actually do the difficult ground work to identify players that fit the team. This is a far harder task than people recognize.

BB is very very stupid if he doesn't think the pass rush needs to be addressed. I truly believe that BB knows the pass rush is an issue, but he believes that selecting someone high in the draft is not the best way to go about fulfilling this need.

It sounds like you recognize that BB isn't stupid so I guess I should be happy with that. I think the issues is whether its good strategy to sell out in order to get one player to address one specific need or utilize another strategy that allows you to pick five or six players to fill multiple needs. Being that football is a team game, I'm of the opinion that it multiple players trump one.

 

[Dagg]

Good Analysis but dead wrong at OLB sorry. I never thought we would go DE in this draft but 2 rb and a qb is a shocker.

You need to understand there is a difference between good starter and superstar. Our Def overachieved last year IMO.

Gaurd was a big need and not addressed I can only hope we are now keeping Mankins.

 

[ctpatsfan1]

It is..what is. I am just wondering how New England Mgt is going to sell tickets to the New England Colts. I guess every other team can have a D except us. Last year was fools gold to keep the fans interested in the Pats going into the Lockout.

The New England Colts are on the fast track to being the Bruins. One and done.

aabtec

ah my good old "glass is always half empty" friend aabtec, good to see you are still posting.

I disagree with your point that NE doesn't have a D. Last year saw a combination of things that caused the D to be less than stellar on 3rd down and in the playoffs. With respect to 3rd down you had a bunch of kids learning a new system. I expect them to be better this year. As to the playoffs, the DL was a patchwork of players due to injury. Also I think the Leigh Bodden and Ty Warren injuries for the entire year impacted this D more than many of us wanted to admit.

With the kids having a year in the system and Warren and Bodden back and hopefully some luck with respect to injuries I believe this D will be miles better than it was last year. Only time will tell.

 

[upstater1]

Stop drinking the Pats Kool Aid.

Belichick, before the draft this year, said this was one of the best DL classes in a while. Then he goes the whole draft without drafting one. Belichick always says it is important to add value/talent to the roster and not always address specific needs.

Well if the DL class was so good, then why didn't you add talent at that spot?

There were a ton of defensive lineman in this draft that were seen as impact players. Whether it was a 5-tech or an OLB, there were PLENTY of players available.

I can understand not wanting to trade into the top 5 for a guy like Von Miller or Aldon Smith. But when Robert Quinn slides out of the top 10, why not trade up a few spots from 17 and grab him? Why not take a shot on Greg Romeus late in the draft, a guy many people around here liked last year. Why not take Cameron Jordan at 17? Why not take a pass rusher instead of a second RB in the middle rounds?

You are DELUSIONAL if you think the pass rush is not a major need. It has been for quite a while now. There's a reason this team was dead last in 3rd down defense.

There is still a hole at RDE, which STILL has not been addressed since Seymour was traded in 2009.

There is still a hole at OLB, a position that has not been adequate since 2007 when they had Adalius, Colvin before injury, and Vrabel.

If you think an OLB corps of Cunningham, Banta-Cain, Ninkovich, and Eric Moore will get the job done in the modern NFL, you are delusional.

Belichick said the defensive line class was great because he didn't want anyone to know they were targeting Solder.

 

[ctpatsfan1]

Stop drinking the Pats Kool Aid.

Belichick, before the draft this year, said this was one of the best DL classes in a while. Then he goes the whole draft without drafting one. Belichick always says it is important to add value/talent to the roster and not always address specific needs.

Well if the DL class was so good, then why didn't you add talent at that spot?

There were a ton of defensive lineman in this draft that were seen as impact players. Whether it was a 5-tech or an OLB, there were PLENTY of players available.

I can understand not wanting to trade into the top 5 for a guy like Von Miller or Aldon Smith. But when Robert Quinn slides out of the top 10, why not trade up a few spots from 17 and grab him? Why not take a shot on Greg Romeus late in the draft, a guy many people around here liked last year. Why not take Cameron Jordan at 17? Why not take a pass rusher instead of a second RB in the middle rounds?

You are DELUSIONAL if you think the pass rush is not a major need. It has been for quite a while now. There's a reason this team was dead last in 3rd down defense.

There is still a hole at RDE, which STILL has not been addressed since Seymour was traded in 2009.

There is still a hole at OLB, a position that has not been adequate since 2007 when they had Adalius, Colvin before injury, and Vrabel.

If you think an OLB corps of Cunningham, Banta-Cain, Ninkovich, and Eric Moore will get the job done in the modern NFL, you are delusional.

Did the Pats draft Vrabel, Colvin or Adalius (who btw never lived up to the hype, Baltimore with Suggs and Lewis made him)?

What does that tell you about how BB thinks OLB's are best acquired and how long it takes them to develop from their rookie year?

As for the RDE not being addressed, I disagree, they just haven't gotten a Richard Seymour talent level RDE and remind me again what pick # he went at?

Its tought to get Top 10 or Top 5 talent when you are consistently picking at the bottom half of the draft and are not willing to bet the farm on 1 player. Maybe what you really want is for the Pats to go 4-12 or 2-14 so that they will pick in the Top 5 of the draft and get a Seymour-eque DE.

 

[andrewgarrr]

I think we would all love to find the next Andre Tippet or Willie Mac but that doesn't mean its an easy task. I just get tired of people acting like its easy to fill out the roster with players destined to set the league on fire. People like to review the drafts of particular teams but how often do they review the entire draft class. The majority of players drafted each year or either role players or complete busts. There are years where this applies to the entire first round as well. Just b/c a player is hyped pre-draft doesn't make him a quality player. BB's job is to ignore the hype and actually do the difficult ground work to identify players that fit the team. This is a far harder task than people recognize.




It sounds like you recognize that BB isn't stupid so I guess I should be happy with that. I think the issues is whether its good strategy to sell out in order to get one player to address one specific need or utilize another strategy that allows you to pick five or six players to fill multiple needs. Being that football is a team game, I'm of the opinion that it multiple players trump one.

Your response to the things that you've quoted me saying don't seem are irrelevant? Or are you just agreeing with me?

 

[PYPER]

Stop drinking the Pats Kool Aid.

First, I want to give you props. I think its amazing when people can wipe their eyes, blow their nose, and type at the same time.

Belichick, before the draft this year, said this was one of the best DL classes in a while. Then he goes the whole draft without drafting one. Belichick always says it is important to add value/talent to the roster and not always address specific needs.

I'm not sure that what BB says to the media ever has any value. I'm of the opinion that he enjoys misdirecting many of them on purpose. He keeps it hidden but he has a practical jokester side to him.

There were a ton of defensive lineman in this draft that were seen as impact players. Whether it was a 5-tech or an OLB, there were PLENTY of players available.

Seen as impact players by whom? Time will tell if this draft produces tons of impact defensive linemen. Maybe it will. It'll be interesting to see how many of them were available when we picked. Perhaps criticism of Belichick will be warranted. But until things play out that way, the criticism isn't. You see it's all a matter of timing. Year after year there are picks that get criticized that go on to become stars and other picks that get all the hype who turn to busts. Eventually its expected that people learn from this pattern and develop a little patience before they get hysterical. Otherwise they truly are idiotic.

I can understand not wanting to trade into the top 5 for a guy like Von Miller or Aldon Smith. But when Robert Quinn slides out of the top 10, why not trade up a few spots from 17 and grab him?

Do you know for a fact that they didn't contact teams to move up? It's too bad we have a coach that is too afraid to get on the phone and wheel and deal. Where could we find a guy like that? Wanting to move up a few spots to take a particular player and finding the right trading partner and the right price are very different things. I think your thought process lacks sufficient understanding of how this process works. It's not exactly like playing Madden on the Play Station.

Why not take a shot on Greg Romeus late in the draft, a guy many people around here liked last year. Why not take Cameron Jordan at 17? Why not take a pass rusher instead of a second RB in the middle rounds?

Those are each different questions and each has a different yet similar answer. In each case, they evaluated which players were available and selected the player they felt was either the better value or better fit for their needs. At #17 they had the choice between Jordan or Solder and they felt Solder was the better fit. Perhaps they see Solder has a future All Pro LT and felt Jordan would never be more than a jag. Who knows? The point is that nobody does. That's why patience is required. If Solder becomes a bust and Jordan becomes a sack master, you can come back and tell us how stupid Belichick is. Good luck with that.

You are DELUSIONAL if you think the pass rush is not a major need. It has been for quite a while now. There's a reason this team was dead last in 3rd down defense.

Hey, I wanted a pass rusher as well. I just have more respect for the process than you apparently do. I also recognize that we have a lot of young talent in the front 7 and that it is possible BB feels much higher about them than any of us really know. Its also possible that BB saw the pass rush as a weak link but simply couldn't maneuver to get it done. Perhaps whatever player they were targeting got taken a spot or two to soon.

There is still a hole at RDE, which STILL has not been addressed since Seymour was traded in 2009.

There is still a hole at OLB, a position that has not been adequate since 2007 when they had Adalius, Colvin before injury, and Vrabel.

If you think an OLB corps of Cunningham, Banta-Cain, Ninkovich, and Eric Moore will get the job done in the modern NFL, you are delusional.

Time will tell. I feel pretty good about Cunningham and also liked what I saw out of Ninko. I also think TBC is a capable rush specialist especially if you keep his reps limited to 3rd down situations. Having said that, of course I'd love to pick up the next Lawrence Taylor or Andre Tippet. I'm just pretty sure they don't grow on trees. Those are rare talents that don't exist in every draft class and even when they do, they can be hard to maneuver to pick up b/c every other team wants them as well.

 

[skinnydog]

Did the Pats draft Vrabel, Colvin or Adalius (who btw never lived up to the hype, Baltimore with Suggs and Lewis made him)?

What does that tell you about how BB thinks OLB's are best acquired and how long it takes them to develop from their rookie year?

As for the RDE not being addressed, I disagree, they just haven't gotten a Richard Seymour talent level RDE and remind me again what pick # he went at?

Its tought to get Top 10 or Top 5 talent when you are consistently picking at the bottom half of the draft and are not willing to bet the farm on 1 player. Maybe what you really want is for the Pats to go 4-12 or 2-14 so that they will pick in the Top 5 of the draft and get a Seymour-eque DE.

We'll see about this one. The past could have had D-lineman like Jordan and still drafted an OT like Carimi or Sherod if they had kept 28 or after drafting Solder (a good pick probably) still drafted Wilkerson (Jets) of the guy the Steelers drafted. Pr with the 33 they could have drafted the kid from Pitt or Brooks Reed. Or they could have probably put together a package to get Quinn and still drafted a good OT. So they had options. We'll know in 2-3 years if they did the right thing.

The Pats hag an enormous need for a pass rush and were dead last on 3rd down, but some think all is well on defense. And as for free agency, I would love to see them sign a pass rusher, but when was the last time they did so??

 

[Flounder]

ARRRGGGGHOOOOO Pyper. I'm with you 100%.

 

[Fencer]

Did the Pats draft Vrabel, Colvin or Adalius (who btw never lived up to the hype, Baltimore with Suggs and Lewis made him)?

Nobody EVER drafted those guys high, IIRC. Vrabel went in the 3rd round, and was a semi-bust for his first team. Adalius was undrafted. Colvin went pretty late.

And when the Pats did draft an outstanding rusher who eventually became an excellent Patriot defender in Bruschi, the one area where he didn't contribute much was in the pass rush.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

WE'LL see, some of the Biggest whiners here on game day are the ones that are pounding their chests on draft day. There are plenty of Knowlagable Respected (at least they were until last night) posters here that think that A real need for this team is the Defensive Front Seven, especially a pass rusher. The pats haven't had a one since Vrable and Colvin were in their prime five years ago or more. But when they and i make our case we're called idiots or morons. Even though many of us have watched football longer than the average poster on this forum has been alive we haven't got a clue. Again we'll see

I've known alot of people who have watched football for decades....and they are still idiots.

An easy way to spot an idiot is to talk about the Jet game and see them come back to pass rush. Then they talk about the need for a pass rusher.

If the pass rusher was so critical

Dallas would have the best pass defense because they have Ware

The Steelers defense wouldn't suck if they didn't have Polamalu

If you have actually watched football you would have lived through the "Grits Blitz" to the "46 Defense" to zone blitzes to Vernon Gholston, Aaron Maybin, Jerry Hughes,Larry English,Everette Brown, Anthony Spencer and see how comically overrated pass rusher really is.