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Peppers cap hit "killing" Panthers

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by JoeSixPat, Mar 29, 2009.

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  1. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Julius Peppers uncertainty leaves Panthers squeezed by cap - NFL - SI.com

    The term "killing" comes from the newspaper that shall not be named.... but they basically ran the same AP story seen here.

    Interesting how having a high priced tagged player can really hamstring a team in the offseasson, huh?

    I'm not saying the Panthers and Patriots situations were the same, but for all those who were so cavalier about tagging Cassel in the first place, and then cavalier - even critical - of Belichick's decision to quickly move to take an offer on the table, they might want to reconsider and at least acknowledge that there was some risk that the Patriots were taking when they tagged Cassel at nearly $15 million.

    For all those who downplayed the risk to the Patriots saying that tagging and trading Cassel "isn't rocket science" - they should at least take note that things similar to the Peppers situation can and do happen - and when players are makign $14, $15 and more than $16 million on the cap, that can REALLY hamstring an offseason.

    Belichick could have played one team off of another, but he also risked letting the deal on the table fall apart by trying to leverage more from Pioli.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2009
  2. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    This is the reason Belichick traded Cassel and Vrabel so soon. He needed the money to play in free agency.
  3. bigdgp

    bigdgp Rookie

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    While the situations are similar in some regards I think you're overlooking a very key point. Matt Cassel had MUCH more incentive to sign the Franchise Tender than Julius Peppers did. What is hamstringing Carolina so much is that Peppers hasn't signed the deal limiting their ability to move forward on the situation. I'm sure that there is some rationale for Peppers not signing the offer that we're not privvy to but that is key factor for the situation being what it is.
  4. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are three reasons why a player might not want to sign the franchise tag:

    (1) Signing the tag removes the option of "hostile" offer sheets—but that only matters if a team is willing to pony up two firsts.
    (2) A player cannot be traded if he doesn't sign the tag, and if he waits until after July 15, he has to be given the franchise salary.
    (3) Once the player signs the tender, he's under contract and must participate in all mandatory OTAs.
  5. amazinPats

    amazinPats Rookie

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    Excellent point! Looking back, it seems BB got a great return for Matt Casell by trading him for a high second rounder. These franchise amounts are no joke, especially if you want to have some activity in free agency. Great post!
  6. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    As they say on the Big Show - you're making my point.

    No one knew what Cassel was going to do.

    There's threads and threads of people righteously posing that "there's no way Cassel's gonna run down to Foxboro to sign the franchise tender" who obviously were:

    1.) Wrong and
    2.) Didn't understand the implications for the Patriots if Casell DIDN'T sign the tender

    The truth was that there were implications both if he did and didn't sign the tender, and there's no end of nuances or variables that, indeed could have left the Patriots offseason moves signficantly curtailed had things not worked out the way they did.
  7. klinefan

    klinefan Banned

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    I think you're exactly right. I thought BB was lucky to get what he did for Cassel. He was playing a very high stakes game...promise 14M to someone you don't want to pay 14M for in the hopes that you can trade him. Cassel had nothing to lose. 14M guaranteed?

    I've never understood the "they won't trade peppers for more than 2 #1s arguement" made by Carolina fans. There are two components to value...what you pay and what you get. The cost for Peppers is so high in terms of salary and bonus, why would anyone want to pay draft picks too?

    I wonder if NC would franchise Peppers if they had to do it over again knowing how hard it would be to dump him. Peppers holds all the cards. He'll play for 15M for one year and then either play for 18M next year or get a new deal with new signing bonus. Hard to see how Carolina is getting out of Peppers by paying him that much money. Is he that dominant?
  8. MassPats38

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    Also add in, unlike the rare case of the Cassel deal in which the GM and player have history and leave the matter of long-term contract to good faith and execute a trade for the franchise value, the fact that a tender deal is not signed is an obstacle, but so is a signed player's willingness to agree to contract term with a new team as a prerequisite to typical trades, that can easily kill any trade possibilities and leave the Pats holding the bag.

    Players with a big chunk of change in hand are not willing to take unfavorable long-term deals or simply deals not meeting expectations that may be inflated by the franchise tag. It is pure speculation that he would sign with the team offering the Pats better compensation, but unlike the special circumstances in KC, no team simply assumes a one-year, high priced deal in exchange for multiple draft picks. Barring that possibility, the Pats do not control Cassel's future and he has the ability to undo any trade he doesn't like.
  9. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    I actually think Cassel was in a no lose situation. He'd probably sign a long term deal at $25 mlillion guaranteed but can also sit back and earn $30 million guaranteed over the next 2 years by having a decent season as a tagged player.... or get even more by agreeing to a long term deal next season.

    If course he's taking some risk of injury or not playing well but he's probably got a pretty good insurance policy. That's the main reason I felt he WOULD sign the tender, but again, I had no idea that would happen for sure any more than any of the posters here who staked their football knowledge reputation on the fact that there was NO CHANCE of Cassel signing the tender.
  10. RxJock1120

    RxJock1120 Rookie

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    I think the reason is that, he and his agent are allowed to talk to other teams if does not sign the tender. Which on the contrary is exactly why Carolina cant discuss the trade with any other teams. Julius wants to work out his own terms with potential teams, before he gives Panthers the right to trade him anywhere.
  11. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Except that (A) he's already said there's only four teams he's interested in playing for, and (B) at least one of those four teams has said "we're not doing it that way."
  12. carolinatony

    carolinatony Rookie

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    They just signed Gross for a lot of money and trying to redo Jake's deal. They have NO MONEY! I see a bad year for the Panthers.
  13. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't know what to think about their situation. John Fox didn't seem to be too worried about it, as he stated that they weren't planning on being very active in free agency anyway--but that could be a ruse, as he could be bluffing.

    It's hard to figure whether or not he's ok with Peppers' deal, as he has stated. His team did have the #2 seed and maybe with the Delhome extension, they'd free up what little money they need to. I know many of you think Fox is bluffing, and that he'd really rather get rid of Peppers, but I am slightly apprehensive of that view. I wonder if he's not ok with it, and planning on keeping one of the best defensive athlete's in the game, fielding his team, and trying to pick up where they left off from last yr (?)
  14. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Well, there's very little he can do about it... I think that was the general sentiment.

    In any event, people around here need to consider the possibility of a Cassel deal dragging out as well - and that would have been as good for the Patriots as this situation has been for the Patriots.

    Back when talk about tagging Cassel first arose there were endless numbers of fans chortling that it was no big deal and that there was no risk to the Patriots. I think most of them now would have to admit that they were wrong.
  15. jefmblrd

    jefmblrd Rookie

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    All I can say it's a good thing we got rid of Cassel when we did or we'd be in the same situation.
  16. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    IMO, the Cassel & Peppers situations have a fundamental difference that makes them virtually incomparable. The Pats were planning to trade Cassel, and were prepared to take whatever offer they could get in the opening days of free agency. The chance that NOBODY would be willing to take that contract off their hands for any price -- knowing that Pioli and McDaniels were both high on Cassel -- was virtually nil.

    The Panthers, in contrast, wanted to keep Peppers. Thus they didn't have the dump-off trade safety valve, and he could hold them hostage. He's more like Asante Samuel at twice the price than he is like Cassel.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2009
  17. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And there's another difference--they could be reasonably certain that Cassel was going to sign the tender quick. Given that $14.6M is about ten times what he's made in the NFL so far, he would have had to be a friggin' idiot not to sign it.
  18. Frezo

    Frezo Rookie

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    The risk New England took in franchising Cassel was not as great as the risk Carolina took with Peppers for a few reasons.

    1: Because of the working relationship BB and Pioli had, no doubt BB was aware of the respect and admiration Pioli has for Cassel. Coupled with KC's copious cap room and their need for a franchise QB, BB was al least confident he had an avenue for a trade. Carolina did not have a team in their back pocket.

    2: Cassel never publicly put a limitation on the teams that he would play for while Peppers made it known there would only be four further limiting Carolina's options.

    3: Cassel was not changing positions. What potential suitors saw last year was what they would have been trading for. Peppers would be changing. While his athleticism is apparent, there is still speculation as to just how effective he will be as a 3-4 OLB.

    4: As a potential franchise QB, Cassel has greater value throughout the league than a potential 30 year old franchise 3-4 OLB. It's much easier for a GM to justify spending 14 mil on a qb than 16 mil on an OLB providing the GM is in a position of need at one of the positions. IOW while Pioli had little difficulty justifying trading for Cassel, BB would be hard pressed explaining Peppers at 16 mil even though he has a perceived need at OLB.

    I agree that franchising Cassel carried risk. Franchising Peppers was a much greater risk if Carolina's intention was to trade him. Supposedly Cassel signed the tender without full realization of the ramifications. Had he been aware maybe things would be different and the Pats would be on the inside looking out. Thank you Mr. Cassel.

    BTW...my spell checker says SixPat is supposed to be Sexpot. :eek:
  19. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    I'm pretty sure everyone now freely admits that the market for Cassel was no where near as broad as everyone thought. There was one team willing to make a deal, and a 2 others that were in the "maybe" category and they needed to be part of a complex three way deal.

    With so few teams interested I'm not sure we can so easilly discount the prospects of being stuck with Cassel as "nil" - though the Pats had the ability to take far less than a 2nd, 3rd or even just a 4th round pick to get the deal done.
  20. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    About a week before free agency began, NFL.com had an article stating that if Carolina slaps the franchise tag on Peppers, it's their own death wish. The Panthers are trying to play hard ball with the rest of the NFL which isn't working. They are laughing at the idea that they would only give him up for a second round pick. News flash, you better take what you can get for him because the Panthers can't afford to pay him. The Panthers are really hoping Peppers caves in and signs a long term deal with them. If Peppers only signs the franchise tender, the Panthers will trade him to the team he wants to go to. Peppers will be in total control. For example, the Panthers could be offered a 1st round pick from lets say Tampa Bay but Peppers wants to go to New England which offered a 2nd round pick. If those were the only too suitors, the Panthers would have to trade him to New England because they can't afford to pay Peppers. In fact, they might not be able to sign their own draft picks if they keep Peppers. In the end, the Panthers dug themselves a gigantic hole. Worse case scenerio for the Panthers, they get nothing for Peppers. This will happen by either the Panthers gutting their team to keep Peppers for one year and having him walk in the next free agency or they will have to remove the franchise tag before the deadline and let him walk. This article is another article closer to validating that Peppers will traded.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2009
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