People under-estimating the loss of McGinest?

[the taildragger]

hate to sound cold, but willie has moved on and so has our team. it's the nature of FA. I do not want this to die out like the celtics did.

 

[DaBruinz]

A VERY fine and balanced analysis.

\

Except that he missed the first point of the thread. And, well, there aren't any good 3-4 OLBs left to sign. And probably won't be any since the June 1st date won't offer up many if any cuts since most teams are already 5-6 million under the cap. No need to cut players if you don't need the cap money.

 

[DaBruinz]

hate to sound cold, but willie has moved on and so has our team. it's the nature of FA. I do not want this to die out like the celtics did.

You aren't sounding cold. You are just missing part of the point of my original post. And that was for people to stop dis-respecting McGinest and acting like he meant nothing to this team. As what happened in several posts in other threads tonight.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Maybe I'm over-estimating the loss of McGinest, but I don't believe I am. It galls me to hear people say that "Our defense was awesome at the end of last year and we only lost McGinest." Why? Because McGinest was one of the leaders on this defense. He was out there every game the last two years rarely going to the sidelines for a breather. How many key plays did he make for us?

While there isn't much of a drop off from McGinest to Vrabel (and there is a drop off), what about the drop off from Vrabel to say, Beisel or Claridge? And is the combination of the two drop offs larger or smaller than if we were going from McGinest to Lawson and leaving Vrabel in the middle with Bruschi? The final piece to take into consideration is what is the drop off from Maroney to Brian Calhoun or Maurice Drew?

This defense is already going to be significantly different from last year's team because McGinest is gone. Vrabel and he have different pass rush skills. McGinest would go around the edge. Vrabel likes to shoot the inside hole. Having Vrabel lined up opposite Colvin is a defense we've never seen before. Well, maybe in 2004 before Colvin got hurt, but I can't remember how we started. Anyways. I hope that my fears are misplaced. But lets give Willie the respect he deserves and not pretend like his loss is easily covered.

Colvin didn't replace Vrable, but he learned to play the assignment. Whomever plays ROLB will learn to play the assignment or be replaced by someone else who will give it a try. Mincy, Vrabel, TBC, Klecko, Claridge, Beisel, who knows how this will shake out. Mike Kudla from Ohio is a UDFA, maybe we'll wake up and find he's been signed. Maybe it will be Schable out of North Dakota State or Neill out of Rutgers, both productive and big DEs. So who is this McGinest guy anyway?

Or to put things another way DB, peace be unto you, Troy Brown is still on the roster and tougher then ever.

 

[jct]

When people cry about the moves we have made so far in FA and the draft they are just showing their collossal ignorance.
They are simply fans.
The patriots have an army of talent evaluators and Doctors who have a masterful understanding of truly talent and potential.
They know how healthy Dillon,Harrison light and Koppen are.
They know how far along our currently signed roster is.
They know that J Green is almost at McGinests level of production.
They can evaluate talent in the draft better than almost everyone based on their track record.
So what good does it do to cry about their choices?
Accept it. The team that brought us 3 SBs picked these 10 guys to help us win.
Yes they said that we have holes to fill in UDFAs and FAs...
If I were Ty Law,S Havner,K Parham, K Newman or M Nance I'd see the greenest grass with the best Coach, best Management and best opportunity in NE.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Okay fine I had this whole eloquent post but it got knocked off line.

Simple point: yes we should definitely act with a little more grace towards the Pats that move on.

It's pretty ignorant to hate these guys that gave you super bowl memories. McGinest, Adam, Givens this year. But we do need to move on.

And no, the talents they provided do not immediately become trifling when they step out the door. With the game on the line I still like Adam, even if he seemed in decline last year. But same point pertains - the value's not there for the money expended.

It's a rough business. Agree w/Bruinz we don't need to make it uglier by downplaying the accomplishments of our Pats of Yesteryear.

It's easier once they're out of the game - then you get to settle in with your Pats memories. But so few players go that route anymore. Either way, it's just plain hypocrisy to pretend like the contributions never happened.

Still - woo hoo, we're gonna win we're gonna win! Had to do that, it being April. We might lose the offseason bowl to Miami again.

PFnV

 

[DaBruinz]

When people cry about the moves we have made so far in FA and the draft they are just showing their collossal ignorance.
They are simply fans.
The patriots have an army of talent evaluators and Doctors who have a masterful understanding of truly talent and potential.
They know how healthy Dillon,Harrison light and Koppen are.
They know how far along our currently signed roster is.
They know that J Green is almost at McGinests level of production.
They can evaluate talent in the draft better than almost everyone based on their track record.
So what good does it do to cry about their choices?
Accept it. The team that brought us 3 SBs picked these 10 guys to help us win.
Yes they said that we have holes to fill in UDFAs and FAs...
If I were Ty Law,S Havner,K Parham, K Newman or M Nance I'd see the greenest grass with the best Coach, best Management and best opportunity in NE.

'

JCT - And you show your ignorance too.

That ARMY of doctors missed that Ted Johnson was suffering from PCS and wouldn't be able to pass a physical to play again.

Jarvis Green is a DE. NOT a friggin OLB.

Why don't you read the initial post again and shove your whining garbage post somewhere where it actually applies.

 

[hwc]

Except that he missed the first point of the thread. And, well, there aren't any good 3-4 OLBs left to sign. And probably won't be any since the June 1st date won't offer up many if any cuts since most teams are already 5-6 million under the cap. No need to cut players if you don't need the cap money.

To the best of my knowledge, the new CBA kept the 53 man limitation on roster size. There will always be cuts.

Any team that doesn't replace 35 year old players with 23 year old players, every year, without fail, will find itself old, slow, and in cap jail.

 

[spacecrime]

Guys, my BIGGEST problem is the lack of respect some people are showing Willie in acting like he means nothing and that we are fine and won't miss him. And there have been SEVERAL posts that act like that.

Thinking we are fine and will not miss him is not a sign of disrespect. What an odd concept. I have a ton of respect for OTIS. Do I want him on the team? No. Respect for the player and an impartial evaluation of the impact his loss will have on the team are not related.

Respecting what he did for us and thinking it is a good idea to give him a big contract for next year are two different things.

I have a lot of respect for WMG. For a couple years I thought he was dogging it with the back injuries, but the last five year or so he has been awesome. I will always remember the tackle of Davis in the backfield after Houston had gotten to the 30 yard line. The five yard loss knocked them out of FG range. Ditto his sack of Peyton. He was terrific.

But he can and will be replaced. The king is dead. Long live the king.

The fact that I think teh Patriots will be fine without him is not a sign of disrespect. It is a sign that I have a grip on reality.

Thinking that you can only show respect to a player's past accomplishments by continuing to pay him is not a sign of respect.

The reverse is also true, by the way. I think we may miss AV this coming year, but I have zero respect for him for the way he left. Ditto Milloy.

 

[emoney_33]

Maybe I'm over-estimating the loss of McGinest, but I don't believe I am. It galls me to hear people say that "Our defense was awesome at the end of last year and we only lost McGinest." Why? Because McGinest was one of the leaders on this defense. He was out there every game the last two years rarely going to the sidelines for a breather. How many key plays did he make for us?

While there isn't much of a drop off from McGinest to Vrabel (and there is a drop off), what about the drop off from Vrabel to say, Beisel or Claridge? And is the combination of the two drop offs larger or smaller than if we were going from McGinest to Lawson and leaving Vrabel in the middle with Bruschi? The final piece to take into consideration is what is the drop off from Maroney to Brian Calhoun or Maurice Drew?

This defense is already going to be significantly different from last year's team because McGinest is gone. Vrabel and he have different pass rush skills. McGinest would go around the edge. Vrabel likes to shoot the inside hole. Having Vrabel lined up opposite Colvin is a defense we've never seen before. Well, maybe in 2004 before Colvin got hurt, but I can't remember how we started. Anyways. I hope that my fears are misplaced. But lets give Willie the respect he deserves and not pretend like his loss is easily covered.

Well if it was going to be the exact same defense as last year except no mcginest, then it would be a little different. It wouldn't go from great to horrible with one player gone though. Our defense was bad at the first half of last year because we didn't have many key players. Also don't forget Rodney will be back so we will have Rodney with no Mcginest where last year we had Mcginest with no Rodney. Beisel will contribute a lot more this year than last year, this system is not easy and you can't expect any linebacker to play ILB well in their first year here. Belichick must have some plan or see something in someone we already have. I'm definitely not worried about the defense, Belichick will make sure we field a damn good defense, barring injuries of course.


No one player is going to make or break the team's defense.

 

[DaBruinz]

To the best of my knowledge, the new CBA kept the 53 man limitation on roster size. There will always be cuts.

And to the best of my knowledge, the rosters between now and the middle of August get to stay at 80 plus your NFLE Exemptions. They get cut down to 75 total (no roster exemptions) prior to the 4th game. And then to 53 after the 4th game.

So, are you saying that a guy whom the Patriots will be able to pick up the week prior to the season will be able to come in and be effective?

Again, most teams have 5-6 million in cap space. They don't NEED to make cuts until prior to the 4th game of training camp.

 

[hwc]

It's easier once they're out of the game - then you get to settle in with your Pats memories. But so few players go that route anymore. Either way, it's just plain hypocrisy to pretend like the contributions never happened.

I don't have any problem honoring the contributions of players to previous Pats teams and still hating those players on the rosters of the Browns, Colts, or wherever it is that Givens signed with.

 

[hwc]

So, are you saying that a guy whom the Patriots will be able to pick up the week prior to the season will be able to come in and be effective?

Sure. Happens all the time. Especially with veteran role players.

 

[PatsSteve1]

To the best of my knowledge, the new CBA kept the 53 man limitation on roster size. There will always be cuts.

Any team that doesn't replace 35 year old players with 23 year old players, every year, without fail, will find itself old, slow, and in cap jail.

* True. Out with the old and in with the new has to happen. The trick is to bring in young guys who are as good or better than the old one(s) who left. It can't be just any young body. Whether they have done that will take seeing them play to get an answer. IMO, that 4th LB isn't on the current roster.

 

[JR4]

I love Willie. I couldn't believe they let Mr. Patriot go. It was like a knife to
the heart.
But it was done. Why? Money? perhaps or Maybe it was Belichick realizing that
the LB core needed to get younger. Maybe he saw things in Willie's play that
indicated to him that he was slipping. Maybe he saw a player on the team
right now that could do a comparable job but with youth and stamina that
that aging Willie just doesn't have.
Willies experience is invaluable ... on the field .. but maybe he can't do what
his mind is telling him as well as he use to do.

This is a tough coaching decision but he knows better than anyone how to
evaluate his own players. As the song goes:

you gotta know when to holdem ... you gotta know when to foldem.

I will always have the fondest memories of Willie.

Now the really question is:
Will the PATs D suffer big time because Willie is not here? I do not know but
my gut says NO. BB knows what he is doing. He knows how to replace Willie.
I don't know but my bet is he does. If one thing we should know about BB
by now ... he always has a back up plan.

With how the draft went down and listening to BB talk about adding depth
to the defense gives me the confidence that all is OK with the D. We'll see.

 

[Joker]

In my opinion he is...our 6th round pick

Your opinion back in 2001 was "Brady? who cares...we need a future QB to replace Drew down the line"....must have been a stunning rock hard slap in the head when Brady WON the Super Bowl, eh?

now you are pulling the same old "expectations not met" pity party....and Jeremy Mincey is there right in front of your face with all the exact attributes of the prototypical Belichick elephant linebacker staring you square in the eyes...and you STILL don't see it...read BB's post draft interview, with every single pick he says "he projects, he may , he could, we think..."...only ONE pick does Bill STATE "he will" and THAT's Jeremy Mincey.


You say what you want and I'll say , right now, for the record, that the tandem of Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli are WITHOUT peer in judging talent across the ENTIRE 1st through 7th round spectrum.

 

[Amnorix]

Maybe I'm over-estimating the loss of McGinest, but I don't believe I am. It galls me to hear people say that "Our defense was awesome at the end of last year and we only lost McGinest." Why? Because McGinest was one of the leaders on this defense. He was out there every game the last two years rarely going to the sidelines for a breather. How many key plays did he make for us?

I'll start by saying that Willie was a DAMN good player for us for alotta years, and I don't mean any disrespect to him or everything he gave us by any of my statements in this post...

The team has more leaders on defense than you can shake a stick at. I seriously cannot believe that losing Willie means our defense is rudderless. Bruschi, Seymour, Harrison. I mean, c'mon...

While there isn't much of a drop off from McGinest to Vrabel (and there is a drop off), what about the drop off from Vrabel to say, Beisel or Claridge?

There's no drop-off from Willie to Vrabel. I recall reading that Vrabel made the fewest mistakes of anyone on the defense. Willie might have more natural physical gifts, but he is very much on the wrong side of 30.

If Vrabel slides back to OLB, I agree there is a drop-off on the ILB. I'm hoping that BB knows WTF he's doing here. I think the answre is that Beisel was new to the defense and came on well, in the coaches eyes, towards the end of the year. Also, having Bruschi on the field with him relieves him of signal-calling responsibility, and he can rely on Bruschi to help him in terms of pre-snap stuff.

This defense is already going to be significantly different from last year's team because McGinest is gone. Vrabel and he have different pass rush skills. McGinest would go around the edge. Vrabel likes to shoot the inside hole. Having Vrabel lined up opposite Colvin is a defense we've never seen before. Well, maybe in 2004 before Colvin got hurt, but I can't remember how we started. Anyways. I hope that my fears are misplaced. But lets give Willie the respect he deserves and not pretend like his loss is easily covered.

Keep in mind that if Harrison can come back as what he was, and if Wilfork doesn't revert to early 2005 idiocy, those are two significant areas of improvement versus what was going on last year.

Willie was very good, but no one is irreplaceable. I too, could wish for a LB draft pick, but I think it's very telling that we didn't move up to grab Greenway or Carpenter, or take Lawson at 21. It tells me that either BB/SP didn't think as highly of those guys as most of us did, or that they feel very comfortable with the depth at LB already. Only time will tell.

Since I drink the Kool-Aid 24/7, however.

 

[hwc]

* True. Out with the old and in with the new has to happen. The trick is to bring in young guys who are as good or better than the old one(s) who left. It can't be just any young body.

Not necessarily. That's the fallacy of looking at an NFL team on a player by player basis. You have to look at the total contribution of the 53 man roster. For example, it is quite possible to have a worse starting OLB than McGinnest and have a better team if you use the $6 million a year to sign three upgrades to your depth elsewhere -- for example, a running back who can play when Dillion, Faulk, and Pass are all injured.

Remember, each of these 53 players isn't standing still either. For example, McGinnest is at the age where you expect to see his productivity in decline. So maybe you start out with a net loss at the position in September, but end up with more production in November.

Like Belichick says. Every year is different. Every team is different. You start over in August, improve over the course of the season, and see where you end up in January.

 

[Joker]

Amnorix...Greenway and carpenter are college LB's...they don't have the size or wingspan or strength to play the elephant....just take a look at Mincey...look at what he did at Florida and what his future projections were foir the upcoming college season..why waste big money on players in early rounds that don't fit your scheme when the PROTO player you are looking for is right there way down in the sixth round...these guys are geniuses...and I've been a Pats fan since 63...never have I ever seen any staff as good as this one at evalauting talent

 

[Amnorix]

Amnorix...Greenway and carpenter are college LB's...they don't have the size or wingspan or strength to play the elephant....just take a look at Mincey...look at what he did at Florida and what his future projections were foir the upcoming college season..why waste big money on players in early rounds that don't fit your scheme when the PROTO player you are looking for is right there way down in the sixth round...these guys are geniuses...and I've been a Pats fan since 63...never have I ever seen any staff as good as this one at evalauting talent

It's unclear to me that a 6th round pick is being anointed some kind of savior for us. Also, I believe the "elephant" thing went out with Pete Carroll, no?

Carpenter or Greenway would've been an ILB for us, shifting Vrabel back to outside along with Colvin.