Penalized by the Other Teams Penalty?

[brdmaverick]

Sorry, the other thread about refs got me thinking about a gripe I've had for awhile.

It bugs me that there are situations where a team can be penalized for another team's penalty. There are times when two flags on the same play make a WORLD OF DIFFERNCE.

For instance:

Let's imagine a Patriots defender picks off a pass and while returning it one of his teammates gets called for holding. In this situation, it does NOT give the offense a first down. We all know that the refs do account for whether the penalty occured after the change of possession. Therefore, the correct ruling would be to enforce a 10 yard penalty from the start of the foul where the Patriots would have the ball at first and ten.

Now let's imagine that on that SAME play the offense lined up in an illegal formation.

BY RULE the refs consider these offsetting penalties and the Patriots opponent would get to keep possession and replay the down.

Whenver any single penalty happens, the other team has an opportunity to decline. Why should this be any different? Why couldn't the Patriots decline the "illegal formation" penalty to keep the ball?


For those wondering, I can recall two actual scenario where this was a big deal........


2011 Giants vs. Eagles - A flag was thrown on a Giants defender for illegal contact (or something) on the same play that DeSean Jackson caught a 50 yard bomb. Immediately after catching it and running out of bounds, DeSean flipped the ball to the Giants sideline only to get flagged with "unsportsmanlike conduct". If the defender did not get penalized, the play would stand with the 15 yards being marched off from the end of the catch. Instead, the penalties were called as offsetting and the down was replayed.



I recall this in a Patriots game too.

In 2005 against the Jets I recall Colvin getting a sack fumble. Big Willie McGinest picked up the ball ran up the sideline. While he was being tackled he flipped the ball forward to Vrabel. The Pats were flagged for illegal forward lateral. Meanwhile, the Jets were flagged for something else on that same play so they were ruled offsetting penalties. The Jets kept possession of the ball.

 

[signbabybrady]

I cant be certain of your specifics but I am pretty sure there are instances where a penalty does overide another and not offset. I am thinking the correct rulings in your cases would probably be something of the sort.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I cant be certain of your specifics but I am pretty sure there are instances where a penalty does overide another and not offset. I am thinking the correct rulings in your cases would probably be something of the sort.

The only case I can think of, off the top of my head, where one penalty overrides another is if one team commits a 15-yard penalty and the other team commits a 5-yard penalty.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

According to Rule 14, Section 3, Article 1 (p. 79 of the 2012 Rulebook & Casebook):
If there is a double foul without a change of possession, the penalties are offset and the down is replayed at the previous spot. If it was a scrimmage down, the number of the next down and the necessary line is the same as fo the down for which the new one is a replacement.
(then there are exceptions for the 15yd vs. 5yd cases).

And Article 2:
If there is a double foul during a down in which there is a change of possession, the team gaining possession must keep the ball after enforcement for its foul, provided its foul occurred after the change of possession (clean hands). If the team gaining possession fouls prior to the change of possession (not clean hands), the penalties offset and the down is replayed at the previous spot.
(though there's an interesting exception to this -- if the intercepting/recovering team commits a post-possession foul but scores on the play, then the down is replayed (!). So if you knew there was a post-possession flag and had a breakaway, it appears you'd be better off going down on the 1 than scoring: if a score would result from a foul by a team gaining possession, the down is replayed at the previous spot.)

And Article 3:
If a double foul occurs after a change in possession, the team in possesion retains the ball at the spot where the team in posession's foul occurred so long as that spot is not in advance of the dead ball spor. In that event, ball is spotted at the dead ball spot.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

So I do not believe you are correct in your hypothetical. Since the Pats committed their foul after the change of possession, the Pats would keep possession. That's the "clean hands" scenario.

 

[brdmaverick]

So I do not believe you are correct in your hypothetical. Since the Pats committed their foul after the change of possession, the Pats would keep possession. That's the "clean hands" scenario.

HMMM, looks like I'll have to dig up the scenario.

 

[brdmaverick]

The first scenario (Eagles/Giants) still held true. You'd think the Eagles could simply decline the Giant's penalty.

 

[Ring 6]

Sorry, the other thread about refs got me thinking about a gripe I've had for awhile.

It bugs me that there are situations where a team can be penalized for another team's penalty. There are times when two flags on the same play make a WORLD OF DIFFERNCE.

For instance:

Let's imagine a Patriots defender picks off a pass and while returning it one of his teammates gets called for holding. In this situation, it does NOT give the offense a first down. We all know that the refs do account for whether the penalty occured after the change of possession. Therefore, the correct ruling would be to enforce a 10 yard penalty from the start of the foul where the Patriots would have the ball at first and ten.

Now let's imagine that on that SAME play the offense lined up in an illegal formation.

BY RULE the refs consider these offsetting penalties and the Patriots opponent would get to keep possession and replay the down.

Whenver any single penalty happens, the other team has an opportunity to decline. Why should this be any different? Why couldn't the Patriots decline the "illegal formation" penalty to keep the ball?


For those wondering, I can recall two actual scenario where this was a big deal........


2011 Giants vs. Eagles - A flag was thrown on a Giants defender for illegal contact (or something) on the same play that DeSean Jackson caught a 50 yard bomb. Immediately after catching it and running out of bounds, DeSean flipped the ball to the Giants sideline only to get flagged with "unsportsmanlike conduct". If the defender did not get penalized, the play would stand with the 15 yards being marched off from the end of the catch. Instead, the penalties were called as offsetting and the down was replayed.



I recall this in a Patriots game too.

In 2005 against the Jets I recall Colvin getting a sack fumble. Big Willie McGinest picked up the ball ran up the sideline. While he was being tackled he flipped the ball forward to Vrabel. The Pats were flagged for illegal forward lateral. Meanwhile, the Jets were flagged for something else on that same play so they were ruled offsetting penalties. The Jets kept possession of the ball.

I think you are misremembering. Change of possession alters the offsetting penalty rules.