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PBS Frontline: Endgame

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PressCoverage, Jun 21, 2007.

  1. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    After their "DarkSide" piece, which exposed pre-war "intel" for all to see, I would say this is Frontline's best work.

    Not for the faint of heart... not pretty.... not deniable....

    Endgame

    This program contains graphic and violent imagery

    On Dec. 19, 2006, President George W. Bush said for the first time that the United States is not winning the war in Iraq. It was a dramatic admission from a president who had insisted since the war began that things were under control.

    Now, as the U.S. begins what the administration hopes is the final effort to secure victory through a "surge" of troops, Gen. Jack Keane, Col. William Hix, Col. H.R. McMaster, Maj. Thomas Mowle, State Department Counselor and other military and government officials talk to FRONTLINE about both the military and political events that have led up to the current "surge" strategy, in Endgame. The report is the fifth film in a series of Iraq war stories from FRONTLINE producer Michael Kirk, including Rumsfeld's War, The Torture Question, The Dark Side and The Lost Year in Iraq. (more »)
  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    PBS is the left wings Fox News (without the ratings)
  3. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    here we go again......
  4. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    let's try a little experiment, shall we, rationallies? for this thread, let's ignore the trolls who refuse to watch the non-political program or comment on its content.... let them squawk and obfuscate all they like...

    however, if a Bushie has the courage to watch the program, and can instead comment on and dispute any of the major themes, or prove a general or CIA agent is lying, we'll promise to forgive their forum sins and debate civilly with them from here on out...

    this will be their chance to truly take the high road, and debate the issue of this war's success/failure with merit, and not personal attacks...

    if not, oh well....

    but this war's objectives are lost and not retrievable... i don't like it.... but worse, i don't like that certain elements of this country refuse to own up....

    "And let no one be mistaken about this: The Muslim Arabs on the ground in Iraq know we are done. We are finished. They know we are going to leave. It's not a question of if; it's only a question of when. And they see us as having been defeated. That's very clear. The only people who aren't clear on this right now are sitting in Washington, D.C., particularly in the White House and the Pentagon" -- Col. Douglas Macgregor (Ret.) Military strategist
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2007
  5. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    Well I haven't seen the show but that one quote from Macgergor says a few things and doesn't mean we lost. I know you must be giddy and couldn't wait to post this good news of our reported defeat. How do you think the Muslim Arabs think we're finished? Could they be influenced by the never ending bombardment of anti Ameircan reports and stories in the media? Count on that PBS piece being a centerpiece for discussion and rally cry for those Muslims on the ground. This will surely convince them, and with folks like you spreadding the "good news" it could happen all the faster. I've seen many more quotes from generals that beg to differ with his take on things. I will watch it though. I for one don't just watch/read things that support my take on things. But i'm just a jaggie, isn't that right?
  6. mr3putt

    mr3putt Rookie

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    An accurate and revealing portrayal of events here and in Iraq.

    Just loved the scene where Bremer is secreted out of Iraq because the normal airport road was deemed unsafe.

    Rat poison for the Neo Cons.
    Eat it up Boys
  7. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    unecessary personal attack.... one down... 9 or 10 more to go...

    i still have hope one or two of them will take the offer ...
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2007
  8. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    Are you talking about me? I said I would watch it if you read my post.
  9. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    Pot to the kettle: "You're black". Tell me you didn't post the lets "try a little experiment" to belittle people that disagree with you. tell me that you didn't call me a jaggie? Tell me that you don't call people idiots and POS. Tell me that this whole post wasn't meant as a gottcha piece. When I have a several hours I'm going to piece a by now very long thread of all the name calling, smug, smarter than thou posts you bombard the board with every day of your life. You're entitled to your point of view you are vicious to anyone that disagrees. You use the word "debate" but there is absloutely none with you. There is one and only one view that is acceptable in the world and that is yours. You know it all and when some mentioned football then of course you are then ultimate expert on that as well. Why didn't that suprise me? I think i can throw away all my encyclpedias now. We have the book of knowledge right here on the patsfans board.

    PS. Who the feck cares about you're stupid experiment? You know most people I tend to think are allright and would be great company at a football game or in another setting. Patters, Harry, Mikey, Foggy, Realworld, Pujo, I can go on. They seem to at least listen to another POV. You, are different. I'd have a horrible time with you though. No respect, none, zero.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2007
  10. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    like i give a sh!t...

    again... i do so only in response... treat me with respect from the start, and you'd receive it... go ahead and do your research, and for each occassion whereby you find i've taken someone to task, i'll show you where that person started sh!t... including you...

    it's not a gotcha piece... there are easier ways to do that... what i'm looking for is mature debate about the merits of this war... it can still be that, in this thread, anyway, if the predictable dozen wouldn't once again start sh!t on a personal level, and could perhaps tackle the issue itself...

    here, i'll start: this occupation is lost...

    now, see if you can debate that statement without focusing on me in any way shape or form.... go ahead... show me you can do it... i haven't seen it yet
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2007
  11. mr3putt

    mr3putt Rookie

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    So let's see here

    One side of the aisle posts a thread to express a point of view on an issue..
    The other side responds by attacking/demeaning the source of information...
    Author of thread responds by counterattack on lack of research and mental acuity of the rebuttal.
    The other side cites irrelavent scandals from years past
    Author cites counter irrelavent scandals from years past
    The other side calls his Momma names
    Author calls his Momma names...ect ....ect
    Sense a pattern here?

    Not just this thread...but all these stinkin threads!!!!!!!

    When does the damn football season start??????
  12. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    Does treating with you respect require that you're not to be challanged? And did you not throw youself smack-dab in the middle of of the focus with your little "experiment"?

    Anyway for starters we are still in there and we are still fighting. To me and Tom brady that means that it ain't over. Sure, some retired ex-Patriot or some tired old media "journalist" may be all disgruntled over his time with or covering them but don't go in the media and say the season is lost in the middle of it ala Ron Borges. And don't accuse me of comparing a game to a war in magnitude. To the fighting folks, the same anolgy is even more valid. I have several friends in the military and I can't tell you how angry they are over the negative media and anti-US bloggers that is constantly thrown in their face. Once again it is music to the ears to the radical Muslims. Without even googling for disenting views of other military brass(which you know there are many) to your views of "the war is lost" drum beat. I'll say that the fact that we are there and the fight continues is evidence that it ain't over.
  13. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    "negative reporting"

    why is it that so many war supporters (or whatever they prefer to be called) seem to believe the media just needs to keep quiet and not report on what's going on? like it's their duty to infact, not do their job, and remain idle until the war's end? ... they're not making these stories up, they're a reflection of what is happening... blame the stories for occuring, not the media for doing their job...

    i've seen the stories reported and the books written about schools restored, hospitals built, water treatment plants fixed up... so it's not like it's purposely focused on the negative over there... regardless, there is far more calamity and sabotage and waste and corruption... the media isn't here or there to make the right happy, or the left happy... it's doing its job to inform the American people ...

    it's called the first amendment.... if you want to prop up a democracy, you can't stifle the tenets of your own in the process...
  14. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Because typically they aren't reporting on what is going on they are expressing opinions.


    Why aren't they reporting???


    Because they aren't out in the field with the troops That Why they don't know what the hell is going most are merely pushing an agenda.


    Michael Yon http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/operation-arrowhead-ripper-day-one.htm

    is on the ground reporting first hand on the surge and living with the GI's.

    Alos Michael Gordon from the NYT is in the field actually reporting.
  15. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    I got a better idea than your stupid experiment. Lets just answer 1 question.

    Our blood and treasure are out there right now, sweating, struggling and dying right this very minute, and all your smug nonsense posts will do nothing to change that. It's happening now.

    Arrowhead Ripper has begun. It's primarily AQ vs. us. We either win and have prayer of doing anything good over there, or we lose and, well............. nothing good will come of it.

    One thing is for sure, some of us will die. My question to you is simply:

    WHICH SIDE DO YOU WANT TO WIN?
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2007
  16. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    actually, it's more than AQ... always was.. but thanks for focusing on me and not the truth...
  17. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    bullsh!t... as a field journalist, you don't "report" on opinion... that's an oxy-moron... you report what the military tells the press when they come back to base, you fashion your story around military quotes and officials' quotes... regardless, there are thousands of journalists in Iraq, some embedded in the field...

    no one is saying we don't kick the crap out of the enemy when engaged... but it's like holding five pounds of jello in your hand.... not possible to get them all.... not possible to stop the bombings...
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2007
  18. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If you are in the filed you report WHAT YOU SEE, and what you hear from the GI's in the field. This is reporting.

    Most of the media is reporting from Press Conferences in the Green Zone and hotel bars. They promote thjeir agendas and make the 'fact' fit the story they want to tell. This is what the bulk of the MSM engages in.

    Most of the time we were chasing the enemy out of one place and then into another. The current operation is seek and destroy IOW kill the bad guys.

    Unfortunately it took Bush longer to find Patraeus than it took Lincoln to find Grant.

    From M Yon with the troops:

  19. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    they're not allowed to just go out on patrols on a whim... and they can't go out unprotected...

    do you believe Patraeus is the solution to this whole thing?
  20. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    Just as I suspected. More smoke and mirrors.

    You don't even really know the fight that I'm talking about, do you? Yet, you want me take you serious and debate the merits of the war with you? :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2007
  21. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    Yes...........



    Of course, I will add the caveat that while he probably understands more than anyone whats actually needed over there to stabilize and make the best of some very bad past errors. We will likely surrender first, and snatch defeat from the jaws of........ well, if not victory, then moderate success.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2007
  22. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Some do and most choose not to.

    Check Yon's blog he actually reporting for real not like the MSM boys and Gordon from the NYT is in the field also.

    Yon reported that the biys from CNN and so on asked out when the fighting started.


    Define 'solution to the whole thing'.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2007
  23. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    well, if you'd be clear and speak on specifics, perhaps... but instead, you offer vague statement, then gripe when i don't follow your meaning... what is your problem? speak clearly, and we can get to the bottom of your assertion...
  24. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    Ahhhhh Yes. There is something quite vague and unclear about;

    WHICH SIDE DO YOU WANT TO WIN?

    To which, you did not answer but to add some silliness about the current offensive (Phantom Thunder) not being just against AQ. Which is pure BS, it is almost exclusively against AQM. Again, I asked if you understood the tactical situation CURRENTLY happening in Iraq right now. Again, no real response. I will happily debate the war (its merits, whats happening, the chances of success) with anyone, but you have to show some inkling of comprehension of what's going on right now (the reality, not what you think). Otherwise, I’m talking above you’re level of comprehension , and it's doubtful we'll get anywhere. This is not an insult btw, most people do not understand what happening on a grand scale at this point, militarily and politically. There is the bad, but there is also some good.

    If you’re interested more in “told you so / gotcha” debate, I have no interest. 1) It accomplishes nothing, and 2) is the sure mark that you’re dealing someone an irrational kool-aid drinker that has no capacity for reason and/or intelligent debate.

    But it all come back to the same question;

    WHICH SIDE DO YOU WANT TO WIN?
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2007
  25. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    my god... i'm the one trying to have a rational exchange with you here, and you're hyperventilating and trashing me on a personal level... just as i predicted... did you watch the program? or are you feeding the stereotype predicted at the beginning?... how have i attacked you? i'm about to, if you don't cool down and tell us all how you don't believe it's failing...

    i'm aware of Phantom Thunder, Clear-Hold-Build, and all the other snazzy names they're giving this last-ditch effort... It's not going to work... it's a game of whack-a-mole... they'll keep popping up, keep dressing as camera crews and blowing up mosques, keep boycotting elections (Sunni), keep leaving the borders wide open, and on and on...

    i dont' like it, you don't like it... but it's reality... the only difference here is that 72% of us recognize it... and the rest of you are in denial...
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2007
  26. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    So which side do you want to win?
  27. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    that's like asking me whether i want the Patriots or the Colts to win the AFC Championship two weeks later in Miami...

    of course i want the U.S. to stop the killing and make the best of this calamity... please don't use the tired old Con man talking point that i'm somehow "not supporting the troops"... what i don't support is the corrupt administration that lied us into this mess in the first place... at what point does that ever register with you people?

    we're talking about tens of billions of dollars in wasted reconstruction.... right into the pockets of Halliburton, Bechtel, Qualcomm, etc. .... does that not bother you in the least? Soldiers and civilians are dying so that corporate greed can F everything up, alienate the populace, and blow reconstruction efforts... we never won "the hearts and minds" from the moment Bremer touched down... did you know that the oil fields in northern iraq may have suffered irreparable damage due to KBR incompetence?... you know, the oil that was supposed to pay for this whole thing?... our government bungled nearly every single aspect of this operation... 70+% or Iraqis just want us to get the F out... and some people think a few neighborhoods of kids pointing out IEDs means we're turning the corner? ... come on...
  28. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    How very patriotic. The game didn't end already. That is my point. Of course you want the US to stop the killing? Yeah the troops thank you for that show of support. It's always nice to see the other side getting the pass on all the killing. Don't brush off the cooperation we are starting to see as acouple of kids pointing out IED's. It has to start somewhere. why can't you see that as a positive sign?
  29. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    i do see it as a positive sign, of course..... like a 10-yard run when you're down 28-3 in the fourth quarter...

    did i give the "other side a pass" on all the killing? really what is your Fing problem? i'm about to open up on you if you don't chill out and debate the issue and stop misrepresenting what i f*cking said...
  30. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    :confused: Hyperventilating? Trashing you on a personal level? Cool down? :confused:

    Are you serious :confused: Debate by delude is not really a debate tactic. I've done none of those things except to attempt to find a baseline from which to begin the discussion. The "Which side are you on?", is a fair question to you IMO. You seems to have a poison hatred on many topics in ref. to Iraq appears in almost everyone of your posts for that matter. From where I sit, it's reasonable for others (who only know you from what you post on here) to wonder if you actually do want to win. You need not to be defensive about it. There are many people whose hate rises to the same level that yours does, and beyond, that really do want us to loss.

    I'm glad you say you do not. I'll take that at face value and we can go from there. Had you said NO, then we'd move from that position, But just finding out where you stand is neither "attacking you on a personal level" or "foaming at the mouth". By continually throwing that out there, you appear (note, the non-accusatory qualifiers throughout :rolleyes: ) to be using delude as if to gain some theoretical upper hand before the real discussion starts. Rise above that. You actually do just that in your next paragraph, so perhaps so we are making progress after all.

    Now, you don't think that the effort is worthy, because you believe that AQ will be allowed to "slip away" and cause problems elsewhere. That is fair and reasonable. It's what's happened so far. I can appreciate that. However, for that to occur, they need indigenous support, which they have obviously had up to this point.

    I differ from you only in that I view that the local insurgency, for the most part, have up till now aligned with AQ in a unified "remove the infidel" effort. I believe that in many sunni areas, that is beginning to change. The Sunni's have, till now, have been the backbone of the support for the insurgency. The object to winning any COIN operaration is not neccesarily just killing the bad guys, it's making them understand that he price of victory (or defeat) is too great to pay. I believe many groups (Sunni in particular), are beginning to see AQ for what they are and a waking up to the realization that a post-US Iraq may not be in their or their country's best interest. That is why the several of the tribal coalitions are called Awakening Movements (i.e. Anbar Awakening, Diyala Awakening, ect). Its a matter of who they hate more, us or AQ. Increasingly, the answer is AQ. That IS a good thing.

    Now, I certainly do not see a clear path of victory and the current government is a huge problem, but there are certainly places that have show dramatic changes, such as Anbar. With so much invested, and with the price of failure so high, I think that we need to try to exploit this. I think Patraeus is, or at least better than those before him have.

    I would agree, if what we are going to get "more of the same", lets just get the eff out and let the bloodletting commence. We can disagree on that, or any other issue here, but thats at least dialog.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2007

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