Pats weren't as good as a lot of you think in 05..Status quo not the way to go..

[patsfaninpa]

Let's get to the losses. Indy, Carolina and SD pounded us. Denver and
KC were pounding us until late game heroics made the scores respectable.
We were never really in those latter 2 games. I don't even consider the
Miami game a loss. It's obvious winning the game wasn't our goal. Brady
stole 3 games for us. Pittsburgh,Atlanta and atMiami. He was the reason
we won those games. Not all of these guys we're lamenting the loss of.

Significant changes have to be made. Our defense played well at the
end of the season. But, you have to admit it wasn't against stellar
offenses. Our biggest problem was getting off of the field on 3rd down.
Which I attribute to diminishing team speed. I love Willie,Troy,Adam,
Ty Law,Milloy,Hamilton,Washington and Andruzzi too. But, again. This
is football. Getting younger is key. Plus, there's this little thing called
the salary cap. You can bet the mortgage Mr. Kraft will field a team
that has a salary of 100m(I think we lose 2m because of stuff Miguel
knows which I have a hard time comprehending sometimes.)

Can we just wait to see what changes are made by the end of
April before we start questioning Kraft's willingness to pay players,
Belichicks skill at developing a winning roster and Pioli's skill at
evaluating players? The Super Bowl isn't a given. It's damn hard
to win. You have to be very good(03 and 04) and a little lucky(01).
Took us my whole lifetime to win one. I was born in 61. I'm in for
the long haul and am not going to question the integrity of this
organization.

It's fun to 2nd guess trades,free agents and draft choices.
I do it too. But, I don't like where this is all going about us being
cheap,stupid,non-caring etc.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Let's get to the losses. Indy, Carolina and SD pounded us. Denver and
KC were pounding us until late game heroics made the scores respectable.
We were never really in those latter 2 games. I don't even consider the
Miami game a loss. It's obvious winning the game wasn't our goal. Brady
stole 3 games for us. Pittsburgh,Atlanta and atMiami. He was the reason
we won those games. Not all of these guys we're lamenting the loss of.

Significant changes have to be made. Our defense played well at the
end of the season. But, you have to admit it wasn't against stellar
offenses. Our biggest problem was getting off of the field on 3rd down.
Which I attribute to diminishing team speed. I love Willie,Troy,Adam,
Ty Law,Milloy,Hamilton,Washington and Andruzzi too. But, again. This
is football. Getting younger is key. Plus, there's this little thing called
the salary cap. You can bet the mortgage Mr. Kraft will field a team
that has a salary of 100m(I think we lose 2m because of stuff Miguel
knows which I have a hard time comprehending sometimes.)

Can we just wait to see what changes are made by the end of
April before we start questioning Kraft's willingness to pay players,
Belichicks skill at developing a winning roster and Pioli's skill at
evaluating players? The Super Bowl isn't a given. It's damn hard
to win. You have to be very good(03 and 04) and a little lucky(01).
Took us my whole lifetime to win one. I was born in 61. I'm in for
the long haul and am not going to question the integrity of this
organization.

It's fun to 2nd guess trades,free agents and draft choices.
I do it too. But, I don't like where this is all going about us being
cheap,stupid,non-caring etc.

I'm an even older-timer than you. Yes the cracks were showing despite the injuries. Clear the boards, and in the Year of the Linebacker restock the larder...

I'll always respect a pro's pro like Willie Mcginnest, and he'll be back to retire, but time waits for no man, and great Pats like Julie Adams, Andre Tippett had Father Time call them and he's whistling for Willie too.

The only loss that really hurts, IMO, was Chatham. He was not, and will never be a permanent starter but he was "quality depth", entering his prime, a spot starter and STer, who produced within the limitations of his talent.

The team is less because of his leaving, but you can't always prevent it. Chatham wants to prove he is starter material, and he deserves a shot. In a less LB oriented Defense, it possible he could succeed, but that is not the style BB and the Patriots currently play. They need superior players at LB to make their D go.

 

[Pats726]

Let's get to the losses. Indy, Carolina and SD pounded us. Denver and
KC were pounding us until late game heroics made the scores respectable.
We were never really in those latter 2 games. I don't even consider the
Miami game a loss. It's obvious winning the game wasn't our goal. Brady
stole 3 games for us. Pittsburgh,Atlanta and atMiami. He was the reason
we won those games. Not all of these guys we're lamenting the loss of.

Significant changes have to be made. Our defense played well at the
end of the season. But, you have to admit it wasn't against stellar
offenses. Our biggest problem was getting off of the field on 3rd down.
Which I attribute to diminishing team speed. I love Willie,Troy,Adam,
Ty Law,Milloy,Hamilton,Washington and Andruzzi too. But, again. This
is football. Getting younger is key. Plus, there's this little thing called
the salary cap. You can bet the mortgage Mr. Kraft will field a team
that has a salary of 100m(I think we lose 2m because of stuff Miguel
knows which I have a hard time comprehending sometimes.)

Can we just wait to see what changes are made by the end of
April before we start questioning Kraft's willingness to pay players,
Belichicks skill at developing a winning roster and Pioli's skill at
evaluating players? The Super Bowl isn't a given. It's damn hard
to win. You have to be very good(03 and 04) and a little lucky(01).
Took us my whole lifetime to win one. I was born in 61. I'm in for
the long haul and am not going to question the integrity of this
organization.

It's fun to 2nd guess trades,free agents and draft choices.
I do it too. But, I don't like where this is all going about us being
cheap,stupid,non-caring etc.

AN interesting posts..and I agree and
disagree.....
What I disagree is about how you virewed the Pats of last year. So the the Patriots weren't that good in 05...not as good as some of us think...why is that?? why?? If anything, they were a lot better than their record..the team suffered a great deal via injuries..so much so many a team would have folded. They got into the playoffs and came darn close to getting in the championship game. They also played the toughest stint of games in NFL history..that is a fact and means a great deal...but that is out of your equation all together overlooked. And that is not a surprise..don't let the facts get in the way of making points. We were out of it in a few games...pounded?? Maybe one or two..but I wouldn't say in more.
As to "stealing" games..as you put it..this team knows how to win close games. It is far from stealing and if you had watched this team in other years, you would know it is the way this team operates...WINS games.
As far as the D goes...wasn't Tampa supposed to have an incredible running game and...didn't the Pats put up a wall against it?? Just another fact overlooked..or downplayed.
And then some things I agree with you on a true statement.... "Can we just wait to see what changes are made by the end of April before we start questioning Kraft's willingness to pay players, Belichicks skill at developing a winning roster and Pioli's skill at evaluating players?" Yes..we can and should wait for that..I agree totally except, I want to wait until training camp and see what the 85 or so players look like and mesh. Agreed totally there... and I also agree about the team getting younger...now, there are only 7 30 and older and only 2 others will be 40 this year by season's end. So obviously the youth movement is on for the team. And I also agree about where the second guesssing is going...calling the team cheap..stupid uncaring..sorry I agree where that is going..people do not get it and anyone who says that about the Patriots organization is just plain wrong.

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

I think the team was better than it showed in '05.

Even after losing Harrison, Light, Koppen, Gay, for the whole year and Bruschi for half, take away one Kevin Faulk fumble and one TB INT and we probably go to the SB (surely you don't believe Pitt would have beaten us in Foxboro?) and probably beat the 'Hawks (they were awful, awful enough to be beaten by a QB with a 30ish QB rating). just how bad were we?

 

[pats1]

Here, I posted this awhile ago, before the Jacksonville game:


Here’s the offense. A lot of the games/start numbers are rough, as I took account of a couple different things.

QB – Tom Brady – 16 games active, 16 starts, sports hernia and shin injury
QB – Doug Flutie – 16 games active, 0 starts, no injury
QB – Matt Cassel – 16 games active, 0 starts, no injury

RB – Corey Dillon – 8 games active, 8 starts, 6 games missed to injury
RB – Kevin Faulk – 8 game active, 1 start, 8 games missed to injury
RB – Patrick Pass – 12 games active, 3 starts, 4 games missed to injury
RB – Heath Evans – Signed on November 2nd, 6 games active, 1 start, 3 games missed to injury
RB – Michael Cloud – Signed on November 5th, Released on November 29th, re-signed on December 2nd, released on December 13th, 6 games active, 0 starts, no injury
RB – Amos Zereoue – Signed on September 28th, Released on November 2nd, 3 games active, 0 starts, no injury

WR – Deion Branch – 16 games active, 16 starts, no injury
WR – David Givens – 13 games active, 13 starts, 3 games missed to injury
WR – Troy Brown – 13 games active, 2 starts, 3 games missed to injury
WR – Tim Dwight – 16 games active, 1 start, no injury
WR – Andre’ Davis – 9 games active, 0 starts, no injury
WR – Bethel Johnson – 11 games active, 0 starts, 4 games missed to injury
WR – Bam Childress – Signed on January 1st, 1 game active, 0 starts, no injury
WR – Michael McGrew – 0 games active, 0 starts, 16 games missed to injury
WR – Cedric James – 0 games active, 0 starts, 16 games missed to injury

TE – Daniel Graham – 9 games active, 9 starts, 7 games missed to injury
TE – Ben Watson – 14 games active, 9 starts, 1 game missed to injury
TE – Christian Fauria – 5 games active, 5 starts, no injury

OT – Matt Light – 2 games active, 2 starts, 14 games missed to injury
OT – Nick Kaczur – 14 games active, 12 starts, 2 games missed to injury
OT – Brandon Gorin – 12 games active, 8 starts, 4 games missed to injury
OT – Tom Ashworth – 14 games active, 10 starts, 2 games missed to injury

OG – Logan Mankins – 16 games active, 16 starts, no injury
OG – Steve Neal – 16 games active, 16 starts, no injury
OG – Gene Mruczkowski – Signed on September 28th, Released on October 10th, Signed on November 16th, 7 games active, 0 starts, no injury
OG – Billy Yates – Signed in November, 4 games active, 0 starts, no injury
OG – Ross Tucker – Signed on December 13th, 1 game active, 0 starts, no injury

OC – Dan Koppen – 9 games active, 9 starts, 6 games missed to injury
OC – Russ Hochstein – 16 games active, 7 starts, no injury

DE - Richard Seymour - 4 games missed to injury
NT - Vince Wilfork - no injury
DE - Ty Warren - no injury

OLB - Rosvelt Colvin - no injury
ILB - Tedy Bruschi - 6 games missed to the stroke recovery
ILB - Mike Vrabel - no injury
OLB - Willie McGinest - no injury

CB - Tyrone Poole - 15 games missed to injury
CB - Duane Starks - 9 games missed to injury
CB - Randall Gay - 11 games missed to injury
CB - Chad Scott - 13 games missed to injury
CB - Asante Samuel - 1 game missed to injury
CB - Ellis Hobbs - no injury

SS - Rodney Harrison - 14 games missed to injury
FS - Eugene Wilson - no injury
S - Guss Scott - 11 games missed to injury
S - James Sanders - 6 games missed to injury
S/CB - Artrell Hawkins (signed in mid-November) - 2 games missed to injury
S - Michael Stone - no injury

 

[Flying Fungi]

that's a cool breakdown, but you've only got 13 RB starts...who started the other 3 games in the regular season? or did we somehow start 3 games with an empty backfield?

 

[BelichickFan]

Sure it you look at those first half loses we weren't that great. Starting with the return of Bruschi and move of Vrabel inside, you'd better believe we were that great. Better protection of Brady and a more effective Dillon would have made us the best in the league - by a wide margin.

 

[Fanfrom1960]

Sure it you look at those first half loses we weren't that great. Starting with the return of Bruschi and move of Vrabel inside, you'd better believe we were that great. Better protection of Brady and a more effective Dillon would have made us the best in the league - by a wide margin.

Yeah, but every top tier team can probably say if they had this or that they'd be the best, as in if Pittsburgh had their starting QB all season...If wishes were horses...

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

TE – Christian Fauria – 5 games active, 5 starts, no injury

minor correction: 14 games active, 5 starts

 

[PATSNUTme]

Look, before the start of TC, I thought that team on paper was better than the Chmpionship team the year before. That was before TJ retirement but considering Tedy Bru would be out the entire year.

Go back and look at the roster then and tell me if I was wrong.

Then TJ retired. That put MR Biesel in a position to be an ILB. He was not signed to be an ILB and never played it before. The injuries kept piling up. IMO, we did a great job to make it as far as we did. And, if it weren't for the turnovers in the Denver game, we would have made it to the SB again.

So, did BB do such a bad job in FA last year? I don't think so.

 

[BelichickFan]

Yeah, but every top tier team can probably say if they had this or that they'd be the best, as in if Pittsburgh had their starting QB all season...If wishes were horses...

I'm saying that all we need to do is shore up the right side of the OL and have Light and Koppen come back healthy and we're right there. No rebuilding necessary. With all the yacking about FA losses, the only one we really need to replace is Givens.

 

[shirtsleeve]

Well, I disagree with the premise of this post. Sort of. I think we were better than the 05 season shows. Inuries were brutal last year. But alot of these guys are getting older, and slower. And more fragile. A cleaning of house is in order.

The other point I would like to make is the two very different mindsets that this board has. The offense minded, and the defense minded.
The o' minded want these big name FA's picked up, and rb's and receivers drafted in RD 1.
The D minded want linebackers and db's. They are also more patient than the O minded about FA's.

But what is the team's mindset? Look at the teams fielded in the superbowl runs. No flash and sparkle greatest show on turf there. In fact, during the last run, that was the Dolts claim to fame. The Pats ground it out, wore 'em down, chewed up the other teams, and spit them out. Like a machine.

So, I would look for a big upgrade on D this year, and maybe an OL pickup along the way. You just saw our big WR pick-up. I think some contracts will be rewritten, and two LB's(both in the second), two DB's (corner in 1st, safety in third), and an OL will be taken before the fourth round is done in the draft.

 

[hwc]

Pats weren't as good as a lot of you think in 05..Status quo not the way to go.. /QUOTE]

I agree. To be sure, part of it was injuries. But, I'm also sensing that Belichick views this offseason much like he did following the 2002 season. We all thought that the Pats would be happy to stick with Milloy and Tebucky. But, when the books were written, it turns out that Belichick was disgusted with the play of the secondary in 2002. We won't know until the next round of books are written, but I'm guessing that Belichick might not be grading some of his players as highly as we fans are.

For example, Belichick doesn't seem to have much sense of urgency when it comes to keeping Ashworth and Neal. Maybe, he's looking to upgrade the line? Maybe the emergence of Kazcur and Mankins give him some options to upgrade? Maybe he plans on drafting a couple more o-linemen?

 

[mgteich]

Let me summarize your post

All we need (for the offense) is
Koppen to come back healthy (and at 100%)
Light to come back healthy
"shore up" RT
"shore up" RT
replace Givens

Call it "rebuilding" or not. There is a lot of work to do.

Oh, we also another backup at QB, RB, TE.

And we need a kicker, punt returner and kick returner

I'm saying that all we need to do is shore up the right side of the OL and have Light and Koppen come back healthy and we're right there. No rebuilding necessary. With all the yacking about FA losses, the only one we really need to replace is Givens.

 

[Captain Cliche]

Let me summarize your post

All we need (for the offense) is
Koppen to come back healthy (and at 100%)
Light to come back healthy
"shore up" RT
"shore up" RT
replace Givens

Call it "rebuilding" or not. There is a lot of work to do.

Oh, we also another backup at QB, RB, TE.

And we need a kicker, punt returner and kick returner

I'm in with the rebuilding theorists. I think going for the 3-peat altered his approach a little.

 

[DaBruinz]

minor correction:

OC – Dan Koppen – 9 games active, 9 starts, 6 games missed to injury

Koppen missed 7 games to injury.

 

[DaBruinz]

Let me summarize your post

All we need (for the offense) is
Koppen to come back healthy (and at 100%)
Light to come back healthy
"shore up" RT
"shore up" RT
replace Givens

Call it "rebuilding" or not. There is a lot of work to do.

Oh, we also another backup at QB, RB, TE.

And we need a kicker, punt returner and kick returner

MG -
I think that Kaczur will shore up either the RT or RG position. I also think that, unless Britt has shown them something, the Pats are going to draft either a C/G or a G/T. Jonathan Scott or Daryn Colledge come to mind.

 

[BelichickFan]

Let me summarize your post

All we need (for the offense) is
Koppen to come back healthy (and at 100%)
Light to come back healthy
"shore up" RT
"shore up" RT
replace Givens

Call it "rebuilding" or not. There is a lot of work to do.

Oh, we also another backup at QB, RB, TE.

And we need a kicker, punt returner and kick returner

It's a far cry from rebuilding.

Kaczur can likely be OK at one of the spots on the right side, leaving only one in a draft deep for the OL. The injured guys, I assume will be fine unless we hear otherwise. There's no reason to think not. Really, that's a RG and a #2 WR. Keep in mind that Hochstein can be a totally adequate Guard . . . my preference is a high pick because I want to keep Brady as healthy as we possibly can but Hochstein/Kaczur wouldn't noticeably worse than Neal/Ashworth IMO.

Other than WR your other listed needs are just average FA type signings, no big deal. That leaves WR. If we sign a Keyshawn type we've at least broken even, probably upgraded. And I think time will show that Caldwell will be an upgrade at #3 too.

Most of my list is personal preference, not absolute need. The only spot where we have a clear downgrade right now is the #2 WR.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

So, did BB do such a bad job in FA last year? I don't think so.

Quick count, 193 games lost due to injury (almost half in the secondary).
Divided over a sixteen game season, that's about 12 players lost per week. Considering that's almost 1/4 of your roster that went down, to go as far as they did speaks volumes of this team.
It wasn't the aging, it was the injuries that did in the Pats last year. Why?
Who knows. It could have been the result of winning two Super Bowls and having to play 34 games plus 8 preseason games over a two year period finally catching up to them. Those six extra playoff games (I'm not complaining) and playing into Febrauary when most teams are done at Christmas may have taken a toll.......
We're due to have a year with minimal injuries..................
Just my $0.02,

 

[Pats726]

Look, before the start of TC, I thought that team on paper was better than the Chmpionship team the year before. That was before TJ retirement but considering Tedy Bru would be out the entire year.

Go back and look at the roster then and tell me if I was wrong.

Then TJ retired. That put MR Biesel in a position to be an ILB. He was not signed to be an ILB and never played it before. The injuries kept piling up. IMO, we did a great job to make it as far as we did. And, if it weren't for the turnovers in the Denver game, we would have made it to the SB again.

So, did BB do such a bad job in FA last year? I don't think so.

Just my line of thinking..absolutely...considering it all..BB may have done his finest coaching.