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Pats weren't as good as a lot of you think in 05..Status quo not the way to go..

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patsfaninpa, Mar 18, 2006.

  1. patsfaninpa

    patsfaninpa Rookie

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    Let's get to the losses. Indy, Carolina and SD pounded us. Denver and
    KC were pounding us until late game heroics made the scores respectable.
    We were never really in those latter 2 games. I don't even consider the
    Miami game a loss. It's obvious winning the game wasn't our goal. Brady
    stole 3 games for us. Pittsburgh,Atlanta and atMiami. He was the reason
    we won those games. Not all of these guys we're lamenting the loss of.

    Significant changes have to be made. Our defense played well at the
    end of the season. But, you have to admit it wasn't against stellar
    offenses. Our biggest problem was getting off of the field on 3rd down.
    Which I attribute to diminishing team speed. I love Willie,Troy,Adam,
    Ty Law,Milloy,Hamilton,Washington and Andruzzi too. But, again. This
    is football. Getting younger is key. Plus, there's this little thing called
    the salary cap. You can bet the mortgage Mr. Kraft will field a team
    that has a salary of 100m(I think we lose 2m because of stuff Miguel
    knows which I have a hard time comprehending sometimes.)

    Can we just wait to see what changes are made by the end of
    April before we start questioning Kraft's willingness to pay players,
    Belichicks skill at developing a winning roster and Pioli's skill at
    evaluating players? The Super Bowl isn't a given. It's damn hard
    to win. You have to be very good(03 and 04) and a little lucky(01).
    Took us my whole lifetime to win one. I was born in 61. I'm in for
    the long haul and am not going to question the integrity of this
    organization.

    It's fun to 2nd guess trades,free agents and draft choices.
    I do it too. But, I don't like where this is all going about us being
    cheap,stupid,non-caring etc.
  2. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    I'm an even older-timer than you. Yes the cracks were showing despite the injuries. Clear the boards, and in the Year of the Linebacker restock the larder...

    I'll always respect a pro's pro like Willie Mcginnest, and he'll be back to retire, but time waits for no man, and great Pats like Julie Adams, Andre Tippett had Father Time call them and he's whistling for Willie too.

    The only loss that really hurts, IMO, was Chatham. He was not, and will never be a permanent starter but he was "quality depth", entering his prime, a spot starter and STer, who produced within the limitations of his talent.

    The team is less because of his leaving, but you can't always prevent it. Chatham wants to prove he is starter material, and he deserves a shot. In a less LB oriented Defense, it possible he could succeed, but that is not the style BB and the Patriots currently play. They need superior players at LB to make their D go.
  3. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    AN interesting posts..and I agree and
    disagree.....
    What I disagree is about how you virewed the Pats of last year. So the the Patriots weren't that good in 05...not as good as some of us think...why is that?? why?? If anything, they were a lot better than their record..the team suffered a great deal via injuries..so much so many a team would have folded. They got into the playoffs and came darn close to getting in the championship game. They also played the toughest stint of games in NFL history..that is a fact and means a great deal...but that is out of your equation all together overlooked. And that is not a surprise..don't let the facts get in the way of making points. We were out of it in a few games...pounded?? Maybe one or two..but I wouldn't say in more.
    As to "stealing" games..as you put it..this team knows how to win close games. It is far from stealing and if you had watched this team in other years, you would know it is the way this team operates...WINS games.
    As far as the D goes...wasn't Tampa supposed to have an incredible running game and...didn't the Pats put up a wall against it?? Just another fact overlooked..or downplayed.
    And then some things I agree with you on a true statement.... "Can we just wait to see what changes are made by the end of April before we start questioning Kraft's willingness to pay players, Belichicks skill at developing a winning roster and Pioli's skill at evaluating players?" Yes..we can and should wait for that..I agree totally except, I want to wait until training camp and see what the 85 or so players look like and mesh. Agreed totally there... and I also agree about the team getting younger...now, there are only 7 30 and older and only 2 others will be 40 this year by season's end. So obviously the youth movement is on for the team. And I also agree about where the second guesssing is going...calling the team cheap..stupid uncaring..sorry I agree where that is going..people do not get it and anyone who says that about the Patriots organization is just plain wrong.
  4. Brady'sButtBoy

    Brady'sButtBoy Rookie

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    I think the team was better than it showed in '05.

    Even after losing Harrison, Light, Koppen, Gay, for the whole year and Bruschi for half, take away one Kevin Faulk fumble and one TB INT and we probably go to the SB (surely you don't believe Pitt would have beaten us in Foxboro?) and probably beat the 'Hawks (they were awful, awful enough to be beaten by a QB with a 30ish QB rating). just how bad were we?
  5. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Here, I posted this awhile ago, before the Jacksonville game:


    Here’s the offense. A lot of the games/start numbers are rough, as I took account of a couple different things.

    QB – Tom Brady – 16 games active, 16 starts, sports hernia and shin injury
    QB – Doug Flutie – 16 games active, 0 starts, no injury
    QB – Matt Cassel – 16 games active, 0 starts, no injury

    RB – Corey Dillon – 8 games active, 8 starts, 6 games missed to injury
    RB – Kevin Faulk – 8 game active, 1 start, 8 games missed to injury
    RB – Patrick Pass – 12 games active, 3 starts, 4 games missed to injury
    RB – Heath Evans – Signed on November 2nd, 6 games active, 1 start, 3 games missed to injury
    RB – Michael Cloud – Signed on November 5th, Released on November 29th, re-signed on December 2nd, released on December 13th, 6 games active, 0 starts, no injury
    RB – Amos Zereoue – Signed on September 28th, Released on November 2nd, 3 games active, 0 starts, no injury

    WR – Deion Branch – 16 games active, 16 starts, no injury
    WR – David Givens – 13 games active, 13 starts, 3 games missed to injury
    WR – Troy Brown – 13 games active, 2 starts, 3 games missed to injury
    WR – Tim Dwight – 16 games active, 1 start, no injury
    WR – Andre’ Davis – 9 games active, 0 starts, no injury
    WR – Bethel Johnson – 11 games active, 0 starts, 4 games missed to injury
    WR – Bam Childress – Signed on January 1st, 1 game active, 0 starts, no injury
    WR – Michael McGrew – 0 games active, 0 starts, 16 games missed to injury
    WR – Cedric James – 0 games active, 0 starts, 16 games missed to injury

    TE – Daniel Graham – 9 games active, 9 starts, 7 games missed to injury
    TE – Ben Watson – 14 games active, 9 starts, 1 game missed to injury
    TE – Christian Fauria – 5 games active, 5 starts, no injury

    OT – Matt Light – 2 games active, 2 starts, 14 games missed to injury
    OT – Nick Kaczur – 14 games active, 12 starts, 2 games missed to injury
    OT – Brandon Gorin – 12 games active, 8 starts, 4 games missed to injury
    OT – Tom Ashworth – 14 games active, 10 starts, 2 games missed to injury

    OG – Logan Mankins – 16 games active, 16 starts, no injury
    OG – Steve Neal – 16 games active, 16 starts, no injury
    OG – Gene Mruczkowski – Signed on September 28th, Released on October 10th, Signed on November 16th, 7 games active, 0 starts, no injury
    OG – Billy Yates – Signed in November, 4 games active, 0 starts, no injury
    OG – Ross Tucker – Signed on December 13th, 1 game active, 0 starts, no injury

    OC – Dan Koppen – 9 games active, 9 starts, 6 games missed to injury
    OC – Russ Hochstein – 16 games active, 7 starts, no injury

    DE - Richard Seymour - 4 games missed to injury
    NT - Vince Wilfork - no injury
    DE - Ty Warren - no injury

    OLB - Rosvelt Colvin - no injury
    ILB - Tedy Bruschi - 6 games missed to the stroke recovery
    ILB - Mike Vrabel - no injury
    OLB - Willie McGinest - no injury

    CB - Tyrone Poole - 15 games missed to injury
    CB - Duane Starks - 9 games missed to injury
    CB - Randall Gay - 11 games missed to injury
    CB - Chad Scott - 13 games missed to injury
    CB - Asante Samuel - 1 game missed to injury
    CB - Ellis Hobbs - no injury

    SS - Rodney Harrison - 14 games missed to injury
    FS - Eugene Wilson - no injury
    S - Guss Scott - 11 games missed to injury
    S - James Sanders - 6 games missed to injury
    S/CB - Artrell Hawkins (signed in mid-November) - 2 games missed to injury
    S - Michael Stone - no injury
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2006
  6. Flying Fungi

    Flying Fungi Rookie

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    that's a cool breakdown, but you've only got 13 RB starts...who started the other 3 games in the regular season? or did we somehow start 3 games with an empty backfield?
  7. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Sure it you look at those first half loses we weren't that great. Starting with the return of Bruschi and move of Vrabel inside, you'd better believe we were that great. Better protection of Brady and a more effective Dillon would have made us the best in the league - by a wide margin.
  8. Fanfrom1960

    Fanfrom1960 Rookie

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    Yeah, but every top tier team can probably say if they had this or that they'd be the best, as in if Pittsburgh had their starting QB all season...If wishes were horses...
  9. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    minor correction: 14 games active, 5 starts
  10. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Look, before the start of TC, I thought that team on paper was better than the Chmpionship team the year before. That was before TJ retirement but considering Tedy Bru would be out the entire year.

    Go back and look at the roster then and tell me if I was wrong.

    Then TJ retired. That put MR Biesel in a position to be an ILB. He was not signed to be an ILB and never played it before. The injuries kept piling up. IMO, we did a great job to make it as far as we did. And, if it weren't for the turnovers in the Denver game, we would have made it to the SB again.

    So, did BB do such a bad job in FA last year? I don't think so.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2006
  11. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I'm saying that all we need to do is shore up the right side of the OL and have Light and Koppen come back healthy and we're right there. No rebuilding necessary. With all the yacking about FA losses, the only one we really need to replace is Givens.
  12. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve Rookie

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    Well, I disagree with the premise of this post. Sort of. I think we were better than the 05 season shows. Inuries were brutal last year. But alot of these guys are getting older, and slower. And more fragile. A cleaning of house is in order.

    The other point I would like to make is the two very different mindsets that this board has. The offense minded, and the defense minded.
    The o' minded want these big name FA's picked up, and rb's and receivers drafted in RD 1.
    The D minded want linebackers and db's. They are also more patient than the O minded about FA's.

    But what is the team's mindset? Look at the teams fielded in the superbowl runs. No flash and sparkle greatest show on turf there. In fact, during the last run, that was the Dolts claim to fame. The Pats ground it out, wore 'em down, chewed up the other teams, and spit them out. Like a machine.

    So, I would look for a big upgrade on D this year, and maybe an OL pickup along the way. You just saw our big WR pick-up. I think some contracts will be rewritten, and two LB's(both in the second), two DB's (corner in 1st, safety in third), and an OL will be taken before the fourth round is done in the draft.
  13. hwc

    hwc Rookie

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  14. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Let me summarize your post

    All we need (for the offense) is
    Koppen to come back healthy (and at 100%)
    Light to come back healthy
    "shore up" RT
    "shore up" RT
    replace Givens

    Call it "rebuilding" or not. There is a lot of work to do.

    Oh, we also another backup at QB, RB, TE.

    And we need a kicker, punt returner and kick returner

  15. Captain Cliche

    Captain Cliche Rookie

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    I'm in with the rebuilding theorists. I think going for the 3-peat altered his approach a little.
  16. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    minor correction:

    Koppen missed 7 games to injury.
  17. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    MG -
    I think that Kaczur will shore up either the RT or RG position. I also think that, unless Britt has shown them something, the Pats are going to draft either a C/G or a G/T. Jonathan Scott or Daryn Colledge come to mind.
  18. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    It's a far cry from rebuilding.

    Kaczur can likely be OK at one of the spots on the right side, leaving only one in a draft deep for the OL. The injured guys, I assume will be fine unless we hear otherwise. There's no reason to think not. Really, that's a RG and a #2 WR. Keep in mind that Hochstein can be a totally adequate Guard . . . my preference is a high pick because I want to keep Brady as healthy as we possibly can but Hochstein/Kaczur wouldn't noticeably worse than Neal/Ashworth IMO.

    Other than WR your other listed needs are just average FA type signings, no big deal. That leaves WR. If we sign a Keyshawn type we've at least broken even, probably upgraded. And I think time will show that Caldwell will be an upgrade at #3 too.

    Most of my list is personal preference, not absolute need. The only spot where we have a clear downgrade right now is the #2 WR.
  19. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    Quick count, 193 games lost due to injury (almost half in the secondary).
    Divided over a sixteen game season, that's about 12 players lost per week. Considering that's almost 1/4 of your roster that went down, to go as far as they did speaks volumes of this team.
    It wasn't the aging, it was the injuries that did in the Pats last year. Why?
    Who knows. It could have been the result of winning two Super Bowls and having to play 34 games plus 8 preseason games over a two year period finally catching up to them. Those six extra playoff games (I'm not complaining) and playing into Febrauary when most teams are done at Christmas may have taken a toll.......
    We're due to have a year with minimal injuries..................
    Just my $0.02,
  20. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Just my line of thinking..absolutely...considering it all..BB may have done his finest coaching.
  21. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thanks for the corrections Box and Bruinz.

    With the RB starts - I took a few away from Dillon (Denver in October comes to mind) when he started the game but didn't record any stats (Belichick started him on the first play and then took him out - never saw the field again. I didn't credit him with a start there.)

    I think I also took some from Fauria too where both Graham and Watson were active but Fauria just happened to start out the game at TE.

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