Pats want to build fortress around Brady

[JR4]

The problem last year was the injuries. Faulk was injured. Dillon had the consistent nagging injuries. Pass was injured. Evans was injured. Light was injured. Koppen was injured. Ashworth was injured. Gorin was injured.
......

Yes but I for one am not totally comfortable with Neal and ?RT who ever.
If Koppen gets injured again ... are we going to satisfied with Hochstein
again? I would like to see an Dominate Oline and the ability to put a very good one on the field if injury happens again.
Will Light ever be the same? This team needs an elite tackle at least one
better than Light or Kaczur. It wont take much to bring this Oline to
the next level. Why not be the best when your so close.
Again a dominate Oline will improve the Offense tremendously and will help
the Defense by keeping them rested and forcing more games into being one dimensional.

 

[BelichickFan]

It's also not a question of how much we like Neal - he's a UFA and a team like Cleveland with $25M in cap money might offer him $3M a year. Just like with Givens, he could be offered more than we value him and he'll be gone. That would leave us with Kaczur at RG or RT and Gorin or Hochstein at the other with minimal depth, assuming UFA Ashworth leaves too.

 

[T-ShirtDynasty]

Yeah, damnit you guys have sold me. Suddenly (and surprisingly) I find myself wanting a 1st round Road Grader.

 

[RayClay]

Hallelujah!

Let the bulldozing begin.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/search.php?searchid=15713 :rocker: :bricks:

 

[shakadave]

Yes but I for one am not totally comfortable with Neal and ?RT who ever.
If Koppen gets injured again ... are we going to satisfied with Hochstein
again? I would like to see an Dominate Oline and the ability to put a very good one on the field if injury happens again.
Will Light ever be the same? This team needs an elite tackle at least one
better than Light or Kaczur. It wont take much to bring this Oline to
the next level. Why not be the best when your so close.
Again a dominate Oline will improve the Offense tremendously and will help
the Defense by keeping them rested and forcing more games into being one dimensional.

Exactly! And a dominant O-line will of course upgrade the running game. Whatever line we put out there in 2006, should be even better in 2007, right? Next year we'd still have a lot of 2nd-year players, and even a rookie if we take a 1st-round RT.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The 2006 OL has youth. Two second year players who were undoubtedly the best two players on the line in 2005. Light is returning. Koppen is returning. These are guys that have yet to seen the peaks of their careers. Let's see them fail first before drafting a backup for the next 5 years in the early rounds.

Big difference. I find it very hard to believe Kaczur, and especially Mankins, were not drafted to start. Hell, every Patriot draft pick is drafted to start, essentially. Take Brady and Givens as examples.

That's why I say the talent should be spread out to reinforce and at the same time grow in the backfield, the linebacking corps, and the secondary. That's where the most age is. You have plenty of picks. Throw 'em up on the wall and see what sticks.

Of course, this is all contingent on who the Patriots sign and whatnot. That should give us a good idea of where the draft will go.

There's a difference between being good enough (which is a judgement call) and being very good. A very good line frees up talented TE's to be out running routes rather than getting their shoulders injured. A very good line keeps a HOF QB healthy and either lessens the need for more expensive elite talent at other positions or allows you to maximize it's value.

Take it for what it's worth but Felger hinted last week that the reason Kaczur was in and out of the starting lineup the last few weeks had less to do with his shoulder problem than with some "rookie problems". Felger was not willing to go into in detail because he said he had the info from off the record sources. He hinted the problem had to do with not showing up ready to work some days. He said they were very disappointed because given his draft age (26) they expected a more mature approach from the player.

We don't know what BB is looking for because we don't really know what he's looking at. It's as easy to say give it time as it is to say blow it up. BB watches these guys practice and rehab and he evaluates them on tape more expansive than the network provides. He also knows exactly who was supposed to do what while often all we can do is guess. He has shown signs of growing tired of being just good enough at Oline, WR and RB. He traded for Dillon in 2004 to upgrade the running game. He drafted high in 2005 to upgrade the Oline. He tried to sign Mason to upgrade WR in 2005. He wants an offense that can make the most of the advantage he has in Brady. We're not there yet.

There were lots of injuries that complicated evaluating this teams performance. But BB watches them work every day and he may have a sense that even healthy he's not quite where he wants to be yet. I know we can't afford to make assumptions that wind up having Brady getting cuffed around again in 2006. I'd like to see an Oline that can stand alone with only minimal or occasional need for support in extreme circumstances for openers, and I'd like to see one with a couple of guys getting pro bowl mention next season. Maybe they're already there and I'm just not seeing it.

But I definitely like the title of this thread - I want a fortress built around Brady. It would represent money well spent for the forseeable future.

 

[marty]

Yeah, damnit you guys have sold me. Suddenly (and surprisingly) I find myself wanting a 1st round Road Grader.

Welcome aboard the O line train!!!

 

[dhamz]

If we were to go for an early pick on the OL, I'd expect it to be a T who would play RT. Light would stay at LT, the 2 2nd year guys would be the G and Koppen at C.

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

A couple of weeks ago many of us echoed this same sentiment - to put a real stud up front.

Having a guy like Walter Jones on the OL completely changes the entire offensive philosophy. Not just with his on field performance but with the confidence that spreads through the players and coaches when they see what a 'road-grader' does for the offense. A true stud at left tackle will effect your offensive output as much as any player but a superstar QB. While Light has been good, he has never been confused with the elite at his postion. Drafting a power stud at LT would transform a Pats line which has some talent into a special force difficult to be reckoned with by shifting Light to RT and thus anchoring the line on both sides and stuffing the middle with Koppen/Mankins/Kaczur and maybe Neal with adequate backups in Hochstein and Ashworth.

That's how just ONE player of exceptionally high skill could revolutionize our entire line and offense in general.

 

[dhamz]

A couple of weeks ago many of us echoed this same sentiment - to put a real stud up front.

Having a guy like Walter Jones on the OL completely changes the entire offensive philosophy. Not just with his on field performance but with the confidence that spreads through the players and coaches when they see what a 'road-grader' does for the offense. A true stud at left tackle will effect your offensive output as much as any player but a superstar QB. While Light has been good, he has never been confused with the elite at his postion. Drafting a power stud at LT would transform a Pats line which has some talent into a special force difficult to be reckoned with by shifting Light to RT and thus anchoring the line on both sides and stuffing the middle with Koppen/Mankins/Kaczur and maybe Neal with adequate backups in Hochstein and Ashworth.

While no one who knows anything about football would disagree with anything you wrote there:

It is a pipe dream. We simply aren't getting a guy like that in the draft. Not drafting where we are.

The LT who fit that description now or have in their careers - Jones, Pace, Ogden, Roaf, Chris Samuels, Willie Anderson - those guys were all top 10 picks. The only guy who fits that description in this year's draft D'Brickashaw Ferguson is going in the top 5.

 

[The Gr8est]

I didn't see anyone mention it, but picking o-line will be also be like adding a pass-catching weapon to our offense since the TEs won't be required to stay in and help block as much. Daniel Graham would love an OL pick going into a contract year.

 

[patchick]

If we were to go for an early pick on the OL, I'd expect it to be a T who would play RT. Light would stay at LT, the 2 2nd year guys would be the G and Koppen at C.

Makes sense to me. Take a look at this line: Light-Mankins-Koppen-Kaczur-*. In draft rounds, that's 2nd-1st-5th-3rd-*. (Neglected? Overachieving?)

The problem is finding a Patriots tackle in this draft. I'm not crazy about anybody at #21 -- Justice, Winston, McNeill, Scott. Here's why...take a look at the two OTs we drafted last year:

Logan Mankins
College position: LT
6'4" 307 5.06

Excellent feet, quick first step, pulls well. Not great bulk. Notably tough, aggressive, nasty player who maintains intensity throughout the game. Good hand technique. Very coachable, good work ethic, team leader.

Some quotes:

"He is possibly the smartest blocker in the Western Athletic Conference, showing good form and technique setting his base."

"Known for his toughness and aggression, Logan will play though pain."

. . . . . . . . . . . .
Nick Kaczur
College position: LT
6'5" 319 5.28

Decent athletic ability, specifically foot quickness, agility, fluidity. Not tremendous in bulk or strength. Outstanding football sense, instinctive with great field awareness and game plan understanding. Strong on technique, especially use of the hands. Tough, hard-nosed, aggressive, with tremendous work habits.

Some quotes:

"He is a product of the system at Toledo, which preaches technique over brute force."

"Few linemen in college can boast the technique, awareness and tireless work ethic that Nick displays."
. . . . . . . . .

Winston has not come back strong from a major injury. McNeill isn't especially quick, and there are reports of him being out of shape. Justice played RT, has had character issues and is stronger as a run blocker than pass protector. There seem to be questions about Scott's technique and aggression. I like Daryn Colledge, but in a draft as strong as this one that's just not good value in the 1st round.

I'll take Colledge or Davin Joseph in the 2nd.

 

[Drewwho]

The problem last year was the injuries. Faulk was injured. Dillon had the consistent nagging injuries. Pass was injured. Evans was injured. Light was injured. Koppen was injured. Ashworth was injured. Gorin was injured.

Hell, Brady was banged up and it started to show near the end of the season. There were some bad passes and the passing game suffered because of it.

Is a quarterback thus our top priority in the 2006 Draft?

No.

Yes, if you mean PROTECTING THE QB...

 

[IcyPatriot]

Makes sense to me. Take a look at this line: Light-Mankins-Koppen-Kaczur-*. In draft rounds, that's 2nd-1st-5th-3rd-*. (Neglected? Overachieving?)

The problem is finding a Patriots tackle in this draft. I'm not crazy about anybody at #21 -- Justice, Winston, McNeill, Scott.

Winston has not come back strong from a major injury. McNeill isn't especially quick, and there are reports of him being out of shape. Justice played RT, has had character issues and is stronger as a run blocker than pass protector. There seem to be questions about Scott's technique and aggression. I like Daryn Colledge, but in a draft as strong as this one that's just not good value in the 1st round.

I'll take Colledge or Davin Joseph in the 2nd.

That last line is the key. No way Belichick will take an OG in the 1st round because he doesn't have that factored into cap management. So I see him dropping to the 2nd round for the pick. Unless he's totally overwhelmed with an OT that falls to him in the 1st round.

Side note but I don't see him selecting in the 1st round anyways. A great scenario would be to see Belichcick get O-Line help with a traded 1st round selection for a 2 & 4 (OT/OG) this year and also getting a 3rd for next year to save.

 

[mgteich]

THe patriots drafted Kaczur because he projected as a tackle. Obviously, we made a great choice. He did very well as a rookie LT.

That's a ridiculous argument.

Are you saying that we can't upgrade over Kaczur? You also seem to ignore than Kaczur can be moved inside, almost everyone projected him to be a guard in the NFL.

Again, I'm not saying OL is priority #1. I'm not saying we need to trade up and get Ferguson out of Virginia. However, because of the depth at tackle at the top of the draft this year, VERY TALENTED players could be sitting there when we pick. We can't just ignore that simply because other positions have more pressing needs.

Again, if Belichick sees someone he likes and it allows him to move Kaczur inside, it only makes us better.

 

[pats1]

The offensive line is a strength of our team.

The ONLY reason we saw its poor performance down the road in 2005 is INJURIES. Kaczur wasn't supposed to start YET (see: Samuel in 2003, Givens in 2002 and 2003, etc.) but HAD to (see: Koppen in 2003, Hobbs in 2005, Brady in 2001, etc.). If BB really wanted Kaczur as a guard, I think we might have seen Gorin and Ashworth at the tackles, or at least when Gorin came back have Kaczur go back to being a backup. But since Kaczur performed SO WELL AS A ROOKIE, he's going to stick around. See: Brady.

Light went down. Koppen went down. Gorin, Ashworth and Kaczur were repeatedly banged up. All 4 of the backs had injury problems, only complicating the matter.

To say, since the offensive line didn't perform down the stretch, that the Patriots need to go straight out and get this top-tier lineman is just crazy. BB has built this line up in the 2001, 2003, and 2005 drafts. Obviously, Klemm, Jones, and in part Robinson-Randall didn't exactly work out. Kaczur and Mankins are ALREADY over what both Jones and Klemm did in their whole careers.

Outside of the defensive line, the offensive line is the most youthful.

I don't see Neal being re-signed. My best bet is we'll see Mruczkowski in that RG hole. He's 5x cheaper than what a high-draft pick would cost, he has versatility, he has what BB likes, and he has 3 years of experience in the Patriot system. BB is constantly filtering out the elders for youth. Armstrong gave way to Light. Andruzzi/Compton gave way to Mankins. Woody gave way to Koppen. RT has been a revolving door in the past 5 years, and BB shored that up with Kaczur. Now Neal will give way to Mruczkowksi. Quite often, having an entire unit composed of 1st round draft picks is going to be too expensive (with the exception of the Pats' defensive line, which is a 3-man unit that is balanced by salary spreading out over the rest of the team). Light and Mankins are the 1st-2nd round picks. Kaczur and Koppen are the 3rd-5th round picks. Mruczkowski is undrafted and edgy to get it on. If Law and Poole didn't go down in 2004, Gay would probably be sitting in the exact same place this moment.

BB and SP's crafting of the offensive line is pretty much complete. They'll find the next wave in Steitz, Britt, Krug, etc.

The defensive line is obviously crafted. The secondary is well on its way, with Gay, Samuel, Hobbs, Scott, Sanders.

Bring back the plethora of injured in 2005, minus the minor possible losses in free agency, and there are no glaring holes.

That's exactly why I think BB and SP will just filter in some more youth to, agian, reinforce and mature.

 

[mgteich]

I love this bandwagon for the OL. The Management understood the need last year, and we are starting to come on board. For the past several years, the pats have spent less than almost anyone on the OL, in draft choices and cap money.

Rookies needn't start this year. They just need to be able to beat out Hochstein and Gorin next year, and perhaps replace Koppen. We have three for the future: Light, Mankins and Kaczur. We need two more, with one hopefully being Koppen.

SOME THOUGHTS ON BUILDING AN LINE FOR 2007

OT: Light, Kaczur, Gorin(06), Ashworth (fa), Britt
G/C: Mankins,Koppen(06),Neal (fa)Hochstein(06),Yates,Mruczkowski

1. A dominating LT is not possible where we pick. This is usually a top 5 or at least top 10 pick, as someone indicated, even if someone were available.
2. Light will be back, but no one knows whether he will be at 100% of where he was. There may be competition for LT.
3. Kaczur-Mankins did fine, and would be expected to improve over the next couple of years.
4. It is good to have three quality starters, but it not clear that Kaczur would be a top RG. We just don't know. We do know that he played very well at LT.
5. We need to try to extend Koppen before the draft. If not, we need to consider a center.
6. The ideal addition is NOT a RT, although that is a clear #2. The ideal addition is a top RG who can play center.
7. I agree that 2 and a late 3 or a 4 is more likely than a 1. That is essentially what we did in 2000, 2001 and 2005 (well one pick a way from a 2 and 4 in each round).
8. I suspect that we will be looking at DE/LB at 21. I don't think the value will be there at WR, but the draft is a long time away.
9. We often say the we build our line through no-names. jag FA's and UDFA's rather than through the draft or top free agents. This isn't quite true. In the past six years, we have used 6 picks in the first four rounds, and a center in the 5th. In that time we also picked up Andruzzi, certainly a solid free agent.

 

[pats1]

Why does everyone think Light will be scarred for life?

Vick and T.O. had pretty much the same injury. Of course, that's not saying much, but it's not like Light had a torn ACL or whatever.

 

[mgteich]

Why do you think we should think that Light will be at 100% after a year off on IR? We simply don't know.

Why does everyone think Light will be scarred for life?

Vick and T.O. had pretty much the same injury. Of course, that's not saying much, but it's not like Light had a torn ACL or whatever.

 

[pats1]

Why do you think we should think that Light will be at 100% after a year off on IR? We simply don't know.

He was almost ready to play in January. This will be September.

Remember, BB didn't want to place him on IR until week 16 or so. This wasn't even close to being as severe an injury as Rodney's.