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Pats trying CB Will Allen at safety in OTAs


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This is nonsense. We had/have 4 corners coming back: McCourty, Arrington, Dowling and Moore. We didn't need another corner unless he were primarily on the team to be a special teamer. Allen and Cole were brought in to compete for the 5th/6th corner roster spots.

The patriots needed a safety badly. We jumped on Gregory because we hoped he could be one of our 3 top safeties (Chung, Gregory and Barrett). Gregory was/is not expected to take ONE rep at corner. Do you disagree?

I think that Gregory's proven ability to play a CB/S role is part of what made him attractive to the Pats. But I also think that we'll see more players in that kind of role.
 
This team has only one player, Gregory, who's shown the ability to play both safety and cornerback at a high enough level to be of any value to an NFL team.

I was unaware that Gregory played CB in the NFL at any level, never mind at a relatively high level.

As for Will Allen, I always kinda ass-umed that he would play at least some snaps at FS, anyway.
Didn't he play a little FS at Miami?
 
This is nonsense. We had/have 4 corners coming back: McCourty, Arrington, Dowling and Moore. We didn't need another corner unless he were primarily on the team to be a special teamer. Allen and Cole were brought in to compete for the 5th/6th corner roster spots.

The patriots needed a safety badly. We jumped on Gregory because we hoped he could be one of our 3 top safeties (Chung, Gregory and Barrett). Gregory was/is not expected to take ONE rep at corner. Do you disagree?

I think that if you believe that Josh Barrett is going to be one of our 3 top corners that you need your head examined. Barrett is in a fight to make a roster as a 4th "safety" after Chung, Gregory and Wilson, who will likely be the core rotation. If Barrett makes the roster it'll mainly be as a STer and LB/S hybrid. Anything more than that would be a major bonus, and a major surprise.

And I believe that regardless of what named position a player is listed under that the Pats will move members of the secondary around. "Safeties" like Gregory and Wilson will drop into man coverage at times while "cornerbacks" like McCourty and Dowling will move into more of a centerfielder/FS kind of role. You may think it's "nonsense", but two of the guys you list at CBs started games at S for the Pats last year, and two of the guys who are going to be listed at safety (Gregory and Wilson) have started games at CB in their careers (at the college level obviously for Wilson, since he is a rookie).

So yes, I disagree. Steve Gregory started games for the Charges as a SS, a FS, and a CB. That versatility had to be part of what made him attractive to the Pats. So I think it's ludicrous to say that you don't expect him to play one rep at CB for the Pats. Absolutely ridiculous. BB prizes that kind of versatility, and he'll take advantage of it any way he can. After all, we're talking about the guy who once confused Peyton Manning by having Ty Law switch to safety and Rodney Harrison play CB.

I think that your view of the secondary positions is much more static than what I see happening, both with the Pats in particular and around the NFL in general. To succeed in today's NFL you need "safeties" that can cover like CBs and CBs that can hit like safeties. And if you have enough of those guys, you can do a lot of creative things in how you move them around. And the fact that BB gave a fairly significant contract to one of those guys in FA and used a 2nd round pick on another in the draft suggests that he values that kind of versatility very highly.
 
I was unaware that Gregory played CB in the NFL at any level, never mind at a relatively high level.

Gregory was good enough to beat out former 1st round pick Antoine Cason for the San Diego nickel CB job in 2009. But when Eric Weddle sustained a knee injury later that season, Gregory was moved back to safety.
 
isn't it possible that BB thinks he's not good enough to make the team as a CB?
 
isn't it possible that BB thinks he's not good enough to make the team as a CB?

If that is the case then why did he sign him a few weeks ago?

Was he a better option at safety than any of the other available free agent cornerbacks?

Was it a shift in defensive philosophy that mayoclinic outlined earlier?
 
Yeah...he won't be S come start of season.
 
There is a need for cover safties depending on the weekly matchup. Clearly the personel mix is different for the Packers than the Jets.
 
Gregory was good enough to beat out former 1st round pick Antoine Cason for the San Diego nickel CB job in 2009. But when Eric Weddle sustained a knee injury later that season, Gregory was moved back to safety.

Thanks; I stand corrected.
 
Perhaps Belichick thought that Gregory was the best safety that he could get in free agency and that he needed to use a 2nd to get the best safety prospect on the board.
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I agree with you, Barrett will not be one of our top 3 corners. He is likely to start the season as one our top 3 SAFETIES as I indicated. You think that rookie Wilson will be in the rotation instead of last year's starter Barrett. You are certainly entitled to that opinion. Barrett is a safety, not a LB/S hybrid. I guess the last rookie safety to be in the rotation was also named Wilson, but he didn't have 3 safeties in front of him in the depth chart. I would remind all that Barrett was our starting safety before being injured. Belichick thought so much of Barrett that he fired both Sanders and Meriweather.

Yes, Gregory started games at corner. We need him as a starting safety. It is just that simple. Since, you don't have Barrett starting, for Gregory to play corner, one of the corners would need to move to safety. My belief is that Gregory is MUCH, MUCH better a safety than any of our corners are. BTW, I'm not sure that Gregory would even make the roster as a corner.

Solder could play some TE instead of OT. So what! We need him at OT. Connolly can play fullback. I don't want to ever see him do that again. And our best short yardage RB is Tom Brady. My bottom line is that we needed/need a starting safety and Gregory is that man. The only way Gregory will play any corner is with two injuries at corner, and with Wilson or Barrett starting at safety.

The fact that Belichick signed a free agent and used a 2nd rounder on safeties convinces me that we need safeties very badly after Belichick cut a very solid "versatile" safety who was quite capable of playing nickle back (and often did).

Yup, Belichick will occasionally try to fool opponents with a weird set. Perhaps Hightower will line up at safety or fullback. That has little to do with what these players will do every day.

Just BTW, there is almost ZERO on-the-field evidence that any of our corners can play safety better than Barrett or Ihedigbo, who we have chosen not to sign.

Finally, I am NOT arguing that Gregory cannot play corner, just that he WILL NOT unless we lots of injuries at corner, which of course has happened in the past. Gregory's flexibility in indeed a plus. HOWEVER, we needed a safety very badly and we signed one.

I don't want to see Gregory at corner because that would mean that two of our of our top 4 corners was injured and our #5 wasn't good enough to play. I suspect that Belichick will deal with this depth issue. Either Allen or Dennard will be expected to play if needed. The depth at safety is too thin to provide much help.

I think that if you believe that Josh Barrett is going to be one of our 3 top corners that you need your head examined. Barrett is in a fight to make a roster as a 4th "safety" after Chung, Gregory and Wilson, who will likely be the core rotation. If Barrett makes the roster it'll mainly be as a STer and LB/S hybrid. Anything more than that would be a major bonus, and a major surprise.

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And I believe that regardless of what named position a player is listed under that the Pats will move members of the secondary around. "Safeties" like Gregory and Wilson will drop into man coverage at times while "cornerbacks" like McCourty and Dowling will move into more of a centerfielder/FS kind of role. You may think it's "nonsense", but two of the guys you list at CBs started games at S for the Pats last year, and two of the guys who are going to be listed at safety (Gregory and Wilson) have started games at CB in their careers (at the college level obviously for Wilson, since he is a rookie).

So yes, I disagree. Steve Gregory started games for the Charges as a SS, a FS, and a CB. That versatility had to be part of what made him attractive to the Pats. So I think it's ludicrous to say that you don't expect him to play one rep at CB for the Pats. Absolutely ridiculous. BB prizes that kind of versatility, and he'll take advantage of it any way he can. After all, we're talking about the guy who once confused Peyton Manning by having Ty Law switch to safety and Rodney Harrison play CB.

I think that your view of the secondary positions is much more static than what I see happening, both with the Pats in particular and around the NFL in general. To succeed in today's NFL you need "safeties" that can cover like CBs and CBs that can hit like safeties. And if you have enough of those guys, you can do a lot of creative things in how you move them around. And the fact that BB gave a fairly significant contract to one of those guys in FA and used a 2nd round pick on another in the draft suggests that he values that kind of versatility very highly.
 
Apologies if it has already been talked about, as I haven't scanned the entire thread, but I think that one of the goals with the improvement of the secondary this year is to become more versatile in case of injuries, specific matchups/schemes on a weekly basis, and even poor performance.

Will Allen will have a much better shot at making the squad if he can show any kind of play at the safety position too, lumping him into the category of McCourty, Moore, and Gregory as possible players that can play outside CB/slot CB/and also safety.

Not only that, but as far as "pure CB's" go right now, I think we're pretty set.

Of course two of the main factors will also obviously be the actual level of talent and ability to mesh with the system and understand it; and also the physical number of players that are kept in the secondary, as it will likely be either 9 or 10 total.
 
Does this seem like a reasonable assesment?

CB
1. McCourty
2. Arrington
3. Dowling
4. Moore
5. Dennard
6. Allen
7. Wilson
8. Barrett
9. Gregory

Safety
1. Chung
2. Gregory
3. Barrett
4. Wilson
5. Dowling
6. McCourty
7. Moore
8. Allen
9. Dennard
10. Arrington
11. Ebner (?)
 
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Seems to be quite a bit of buzz around the 'Big Nickel' package - the Jets have certainly loaded up with safeties this year (2 FA and I think 2 more in the draft).

With teams trying to copycat the Hernkowski TE magic, it is apparently the current chic to get 3 safeties on the field along with 2 CB's.
 
Does this seem like a reasonable assesment?

CB
1. McCourty
2. Arrington
3. Dowling
4. Moore
5. Dennard
6. Allen
7. Wilson
8. Barrett
9. Gregory

Safety
1. Chung
2. Gregory
3. Barrett
4. Wilson
5. Dowling
6. McCourty
7. Moore
8. Allen
9. Dennard
10. Arrington
11. Ebner (?)

Due to Dowlings lack of experience at safety, coupled with his injury history I don't think they would rank him above McCourty who has actualy played the position in subs packages.

Also, I think you would put Ebner ahead of Arrington and Dennard as they have no projection to be safeties at all - even if Ebner is a roster long shot.
 
Apologies if it has already been talked about, as I haven't scanned the entire thread, but I think that one of the goals with the improvement of the secondary this year is to become more versatile in case of injuries, specific matchups/schemes on a weekly basis, and even poor performance.

Will Allen will have a much better shot at making the squad if he can show any kind of play at the safety position too, lumping him into the category of McCourty, Moore, and Gregory as possible players that can play outside CB/slot CB/and also safety.

Not only that, but as far as "pure CB's" go right now, I think we're pretty set.

Of course two of the main factors will also obviously be the actual level of talent and ability to mesh with the system and understand it; and also the physical number of players that are kept in the secondary, as it will likely be either 9 or 10 total.

Especially in this defense...which is more and more shifting to being a full-time subpackage defense. The days of being a primary 3-4 or 4-3 are over. I believe we played 64% of our defensive snaps last year in subpackages. Some by design, some due to injuries. Due to this, CB's play more like safeties, and safeties can be played more like CB's. You have to be flexible, being able to not only cover-man, but to cover-zone, and to be able to do them both equally well.

Allen has been a primary Cover-Man for his entire career But how is he in zone-coverage? How does he work out in space? Is he quick enough still to be able to dissect a play and make an impact? All these things you'll be able to learn about Allen by having him line up at Safety.
 
Does this seem like a reasonable assesment?

CB
1. McCourty
2. Arrington
3. Dowling
4. Moore
5. Dennard
6. Allen
7. Wilson
8. Barrett
9. Gregory

Safety
1. Chung
2. Gregory
3. Barrett
4. Wilson
5. Dowling
6. McCourty
7. Moore
8. Allen
9. Dennard
10. Arrington
11. Ebner (?)

Dowling was made an instant starterr last year before he got injured. The Patriots and BB love this kid. I would assume, barring any injury issues, that he'll be right back to starting next year alongside McCourty. I wouldn't put Moore that high on the depth chart...he had a few good games late last year, but lets keep things in perspective with him. He's still got A LOT to prove, and I'm not ready to put him above Will Allen on the depth chart quite yet. So for CB's, I put McCourty/Dowling starting (soley based one what i've see from BB on how he feels about Dowling), with Arrington/Allen being the primary slot corners (Arrington is much better suited as a slot-corner IMO). Dennard and Moore will be at the bottom playing ST's, but they can easily find themselves climbing that depth chart, however.

As for the safeties, Gregory and Chung are no-brainers as the top-two, as they are the only two with experience. I still don't see what the Pats see in Josh Barrett. I expect Ihedigbo to be back, and I envision Ihedigbo and Wilson being the main backups. Ebner will be on the PS IMO.
 
Especially in this defense...which is more and more shifting to being a full-time subpackage defense. The days of being a primary 3-4 or 4-3 are over. I believe we played 64% of our defensive snaps last year in subpackages. Some by design, some due to injuries. Due to this, CB's play more like safeties, and safeties can be played more like CB's. You have to be flexible, being able to not only cover-man, but to cover-zone, and to be able to do them both equally well.

Allen has been a primary Cover-Man for his entire career But how is he in zone-coverage? How does he work out in space? Is he quick enough still to be able to dissect a play and make an impact? All these things you'll be able to learn about Allen by having him line up at Safety.

I think this is spot on. in the Ian Rapoport article about teams using a "4 CBs and a safety" approach that I cited earlier in this thread, Dallas secondary coach Jeremy Henderson notes:

"This league has become a passing league. Look at what the quarterbacks are doing and how the game is kind of evolving a little bit, how they protect the quarterbacks, and rightfully so. The more cover guys you have, the better off you'll be on defense.

Dallas Cowboys still have plans for disgruntled CB Mike Jenkins - NFL.com

Forget about a 7+4 base. 5 DBs will be the norm, not the exception. There will be 6 DBs on the field probably about as often as there are only 4. And as Henderson notes, the more "cover guys" you have, the better off your defense will generally be.

Instead of thinking about SS, FS, outside CB and slot CB, think about "cover guys" (CGs) and non-CGs in the secondary. Except in select packages, most defenses probably can't afford to have more than 1 "non-CG" DB on the field at any time - the opposing QB will just pick them apart. I would classify Pat Chung, Josh Barrett, Nate Ebner Sergio Brown as "non-CG" DBs on our current roster. You can have them cover a zone, but you don't want to put them in man coverage. Devin McCourty, Ras-I Dowling, Steven Gregory, Tavon Wilson, Kyle Arrington, Sterling Moore, Alfonzo Dennard and possibly Will Allen are the "CG" kind of DBs. Obviously, the more things they can do well - press, man coverage, slot, zone coverage, centerfielder, run support - the better off the defense will be.

Even if relatively few players spent significant time at both CB and S, there are benefits to having players get time at both positions. Emergency coverage is one. The ability to mix things up and cause confusion is another. And understanding the different roles on defense is a third. As Devin McCourty noted:

“I think the biggest thing here for every player is that the more you do, it gives you more value and gives you a different perspective on the game,” McCourty said of his experience last season. “Just being able to look at the field from a different view, a different angle. Just being able to see things differently. It actually gave me a chance to learn more of the defense, being at safety last year. You’re the quarterback of the defense. I learned a lot.”

patriots - Why Bill Belichick will enter a whole new world with his secondary in 2012 - WEEI | Christopher Price
 
OTG and I have both been advocating the use of CB/S "hyrbids" for some time. Grid would go so far as to have 5 such guys in the secondary, though I can see a role for a more "traditional" safety like Pat Chung along with 3-4 CB/S hybrids who can be moved around flexibly. Ian Rapoport has written about this "4 corners and a safety" approach recently for NFL.com in connection with the Pats and with the Dallas Cowboys:

Dallas Cowboys still have plans for disgruntled CB Mike Jenkins - NFL.com

As Dallas DBs coach Jerome Henderson noted:



That kind of "ameboid" flexibility gives a lot of options to create confusion and to match up with different offenses. Chris Price has also written about this flexibility:

patriots - Why Bill Belichick will enter a whole new world with his secondary in 2012 - WEEI | Christopher Price

Other than Pat Chung (and possibly Josh Barrett) as pure safeties, the Pats have a bunch of guys who can be used at CB or S: Devin McCourty, Ras-I Dowling, Steven Gregory, Tavon Wilson, Sterling Moore, Alfonzo Dennard. Possibly Kyle Arrington. And now it looks like BB is at least taking a look at whether Will Allen could offer that kind of versatility as well.

BB has gone down this road before, at least to a limited extent:

The Belichick Defense Pt. 3 | 60 Max Power O - The Strategist's Guide to New England Patriots Football

Having this kind of secondary really requires physical DBs who can play run support as well as cover, and a versatile LB corps. Those seem to be two things that BB has prioritized in recent years. It will be very interesting to see how all this plays out.

Alot of this will be opponent specific.

Elite offenses need to be countered with pressure up the middle/confusion.

A "ground and pound" philosophy like the Jets claim will not really need this.

Unique, opponent-specific gameplans appear to be on the horizon.

What's will be interesting is how fast we will change things up vs our opponents.
 
Alot of this will be opponent specific.

Elite offenses need to be countered with pressure up the middle/confusion.

A "ground and pound" philosophy like the Jets claim will not really need this.

Unique, opponent-specific gameplans appear to be on the horizon.

What's will be interesting is how fast we will change things up vs our opponents.

"Unique, opponent-specific gameplans" have been around for a while now with the Pats. That's nothing new. And this is relevant even against the Jets. Sure, you need to stop the run - though the Jets weren't very effective at running the ball in 2011. But confusing Mark Sanchez is always a good way to get the offense to fall apart - remember the 3 Leigh Bodden INTs in 2009?
 
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